S4 – 03: LIVE from NCTM with Bethany and Dan
In this episode, co-hosts Bethany Lockhart Johnson and Dan Meyer are LIVE with more than one hundred Math Teacher Lounge listeners at the recent National Council of Teachers of Mathematics conference. Listen in as they answer the pressing question: Who is the best teacher in film or television?
Explore more from Math Teacher Lounge by visiting our main page.
Presenter (00:00):
Ladies and gentlemen, from Math Teacher Lounge, we have Bethany Lockhart Johnson and Dan Meyer! <cheering>
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:08):
Doesn’t go well that the door was locked. Like, I could not get in! <Laugh>
Dan Meyer (00:12):
Yeah. Gotcha. All right. We’re gonna sit a little bit. Let’s see how that works—
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:16):
Hi!
Dan Meyer (00:16):
Yeah. I think we’ll stand up? Or whaddaya think, sit…?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:19):
Should we stand? Hi.
Dan Meyer (00:22):
Hello. Great to see you folks. Yeah, I can hear you.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:25):
Can you hear me? That’s—I know YOU can me. Can you hear me OK? OK! We’re here. Hello. Thank you for like, lining up and coming out and being here. Thank you!
Dan Meyer (00:35):
Means so much to me that you could be here for me, on my show, with Bethany Lockhart Johnson, my co-host. <Audience laughs>
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:40):
The hour has just started.
Dan Meyer (00:42):
We’re just getting going. Yeah. If you folks have heard the podcast, you don’t know how much gets cut out. And it’s like, mostly me just having, you know, anxious nerves and saying something silly and then we cut it out and we can’t do that here today. So it should be real fun for all of us, I think. Yeah.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:55):
It’s not true. It’s mostly dancing. “Bethany, can you stop talking? Bethany?” Cause it’s mostly—
Dan Meyer (00:59):
“It’s my turn. It’s my turn! Bethany <laugh>! I haven’t been heard for a while.”
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:02):
Dan. We’re at an in-person conference.
Dan Meyer (01:05):
In-person BIG conference, I would say. I’d say a big conference. Yeah.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:08):
And have you been to the Amplify booth?
Dan Meyer (01:11):
I have! Have these people? There’s a claw machine with free socks.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:16):
Yeah. You’re saving me socks, right? That’s what you’re saying. <Laugh> I mean, it’s exciting. How has your conference been so far?
Dan Meyer (01:21):
So far it’s been a blast. I feel fed. I feel like the community’s been awesome. How are you feeling about it?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:29):
OK. Let’s talk about me for just a second.
Dan Meyer (01:31):
Yeah. Talk about you.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:31):
Last night, Dan, was the very first night that I was away from my toddler. <Audience: Aw!>
Dan Meyer (01:38):
Big commitment being here. Thank you.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:40):
I got super-emotional walking back to the hotel after dinner, and then I got in my room, <laugh> I put on pajamas, and I turned on music. I slept so good!
Dan Meyer (01:50):
Yeah. <Audience laughs> Give it up for no kids! <Audience laughs> Hey!
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:55):
I love him so much. But I slept all the way through the night. Oh, by the way, I ordered room service in the morning.
Dan Meyer (02:01):
On Amplify.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:01):
That bill’s coming. But it’s been a great conference and I’m so delighted to be here in person and to get to share energy…and hopefully that’s all we’re sharing today. Y’all got your tests, right? Yep. Sharing energy and community today. Because we know it’s been hard. Hardness. Hard.
Dan Meyer (02:25):
Yeah.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:26):
Years. Hard. And to be in person, I know conferences reinvigorate me and I go back into my educational spaces feeling revitalized with new connections and new ideas to try. So yeah, I’ve been excited to be here. And thank you all for being here.
Dan Meyer (02:40):
Yep. I don’t care if I get six different strains of Covid here. I’m just thrilled to be here. <Audience laughs> I don’t know if you’ve had the same feeling, though, Bethany, you folks…I’m a little bit confused to some degree about what we’re doing. I just wanna be really transparent. This is my sarcastic voice but I’m being sincere here. It kind of feels like we’re in a little bit of a time capsule. Like we all got in a time capsule in 2019 and, you know, you open it back up and it’s like, OK, so we’re still, you know, talking about X, Y, or Z protocol for establishing classroom routines or whatever. And I’m like, OK! Like, I loved that in 2019! But I do admit, I’m still trying to figure out a little bit like, what are we doing now? What’s our relationship to the world out there? Things are very different. I have had some great sessions that I’ve enjoyed. I’m also like, still waiting for a session to draw a little blood. Do you know what I mean? Like there’s been sessions…no? OK. You’ve been in these sessions where it’s like, “Oh, ow.” Like, and you look down and there’s and there’s blood there. It’s like, I thought I knew what we were up to. Like, I thought I knew what teaching was and how we relate to the world. I dunno, like in any Danny Martin session in 2019, “Take a Knee” was one, where I was like, “Oh, OK. Like, I’m not as hot as I think I am here. Like, I’m part of a system.” That kind of thing for me draws blood. And I haven’t been in one of those yet. Been some great sessions. I’m a little hopeful that today we draw a little blood and think about what we’re doing here, is my hope here, if that’s OK. So Bethany’s gonna moderate that impulse and she’ll be the fun one and I’ll be the blood-drawing one.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:05):
No, I don’t…that metaphor doesn’t speak to me personally. But what I will say is, I get what you’re saying about really wanting to be in that room where there’s like this synergy happening. No promises about that today other than—
Dan Meyer (04:18):
I promise. <Audience laughs> Go on.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:20):
Other than I get what you’re saying. I’ll find my own metaphor that does not involve bloodshed, but.
Dan Meyer (04:25):
Sure. There’s a lot of ways we we could go about this today. And the one that I’m excited about is, you know, we could like, you know, analyze some results from students, and talk about what went into that. Look at classroom video. Lots of possibilities. But here’s what we’re up to today. Hope you’re into it. Which is, we are here in the heart of the entertainment industry. You know, Tinseltown! Um, the Big Apple! Uh…
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:47):
No!
Dan Meyer (04:47):
Come on. What do you got here? Um…
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:51):
It was daytime at night. Like the lights were so bright.
Dan Meyer (04:54):
The City of Lights.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:55):
There was a movie premiere outside my hotel room, which I was not invited to, unfortunately. But so what are we doing today?
Dan Meyer (05:01):
So here’s what we’re doing. We are gonna settle, once and for all, a question you have not asked yourself yet, perhaps, but will want to know the answer to in a moment. Which is: Who is the best teacher in all of film or television? OK? We’re gonna do that. It’ll be fun. But I hope that in debating this a little bit with a special guest we’ll bring up in a moment, that we will start to uncover some truths about what makes good teaching. How that’s different from teaching as we see it in movies and tv. Why middle-class America wants teachers to look a certain way in movies and tv. What all that means. And it’ll be awesome. I think. I’m hopeful it’ll be awesome. So what we did here is we’ve invited eight people. Eight folks you people may have known. You’ve been in their sessions today, in this conference, perhaps. And asked them: Who’s your fave? Like, we might have our favorites, but we wanted to democratize it a bit. So asked some cool people who you folks like, who are very smart and thoughtful about teaching: Who’s your favorite teacher?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:58):
A few of whom are in this room. Thank you for your submission.
Dan Meyer (06:00):
Thank so much. Yeah. We’ll see what happens here. <laugh>
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:03):
As they shrink down.
Dan Meyer (06:03):
Yeah. Might draw some blood that I don’t mean to right now. We’ll see. OK.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:06):
That metaphor, what IS that??
Dan Meyer (06:07):
Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I’m still going with it. <laugh> And you folks will be a huge part of this. THE part of this, really. So what will happen is I’ll share with you our first nominees. A few of us will make a case for our favorites, or least favorites, as the case may be sometimes. And then by applause, by acclamation, you folks will decide who wins and advances to the next round. Start with eight, move to four. You folks know math.You know where this goes. OK.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:34):
No, keep going. Keep going.
Dan Meyer (06:36):
Two, then one.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:36):
Yeah. Got it.
Dan Meyer (06:37):
Then a half of it. No?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:38):
He had to school me on the making of brackets. But we got it. Yeah.
Dan Meyer (06:41):
How brackets work.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:41):
But we got it. March Madness, what?
Dan Meyer (06:44):
Yeah, in order to do this right, we had to bring up—all the folks that you’ll see are also former Math Teacher Lounge guests, or like, just fan favorites. And we’re also bringing up a former Math Teacher Lounge guest to help us decide this and debate this in a respectful manner.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:59):
New dad.
Dan Meyer (07:00):
New dad.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:01):
You see where my brain’s still at? I miss him. <Laughs>
Dan Meyer (07:03):
Friend from San Diego. Really cool teacher.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:06):
Incredible teacher.
Dan Meyer (07:06):
Works at Desmos and Amplify. And I just want you to welcome up your friend and mine. Chris Nho!
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:11):
Chris Nho!
Dan Meyer (07:13):
Come up, Chris. Let’s go, buddy. We didn’t talk about it, but did you want to do the cornball stuff too?
Chris Nho (07:22):
Wow. Would I love to do—
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:23):
And then the door could be locked! And then you have to wait and like, just—
Chris Nho (07:27):
Yeah, I’ll skip that part.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:28):
Hi. Welcome. You’re here. We’re here in person.
Chris Nho (07:30):
Very glad to be here. Thank you all for having me.
Dan Meyer (07:33):
Tell me who you are.
Chris Nho (07:34):
My name is Chris Nho. I live in San Diego. I’m a new dad. A three month old, just had. Yeah, she’s actually here at the conference with us in the hotel room. And I promise you she is not by herself. She is with…come on. I was like, “Hey, just gimme one hour. I’ll be right back. I have to do very important work.” But yeah, I think I got invited here because I have opinions and I’m willing to draw…some…blood.
Dan Meyer (08:02):
There we go! Two outta three! We’re good on the metaphor now.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:06):
We’re so glad you’re here. If you haven’t listened to the episode where Chris and Molly and some other public math folks share their ideas and ideas of how to take math out into the world, please listen, because we had a blast.
Dan Meyer (08:19):
Inspiring work. Really inspiring work. Very cool. Cool. OK. Right on. OK.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:23):
Let’s do this!
Dan Meyer (08:24):
Let’s get started here. Yeah! <Audience cheers> Yeah. And we might ask you who your favorite teacher is, who’s missing from our list of eight? We might have forgotten some people. Anyway. All right. So here’s our first two. Our first two are nominated by way of, let’s see, um, Mandy Jansen is a professor at the University of Delaware. Got some awesome talks here this week, a Shadow Con talk last night. She’ll be nominating one. And also, um, Lani Horn is a professor at Vanderbilt, also extremely cool, prolific author and speaker, just all-around great human and friend of teachers everywhere. And she’ll nominate another in this bracket, which is the Northeastern Comedy bracket, Northeastern comedy bracket.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (09:06):
It just worked out that way.
Dan Meyer (09:07):
Yeah. Here it is. Here is Tina Fey in Mean Girls.
Tina Fey in Mean Girls (09:12):
“OK. Everybody close your eyes. All right. I want you to raise your hand if you have ever had a girl say something bad about you behind your back. Open your eyes. Now close your eyes again. And this time I want you to raise your hand if you have ever said anything about a friend behind her back. Open up. It’s been some girl-on-girl crime here.”
Lani Horn (09:52):
I am nominating Sharon Norbury from Mean Girls as the best movie math teacher. She is an awesome teacher who is always there for her kids. She always sees the best in them. She shows that she can forgive even some pretty bad behavior, if she sees that kids are trying. She’s a strong feminist who makes sure that smart girls don’t dumb themselves down just to impress boys.
Tina Fey in Mean Girls (10:22):
“Katie, I know that having a boyfriend may seem like the most important thing in the world right now, but you don’t have to dumb yourself down to get guys to like you.”
Lani Horn (10:30):
She’s also super hard-working. She works three jobs. She’s always there for the kids. She plays piano in the talent show and takes them to Mathlete competitions. And she’s also socially aware. And when things go really badly among the girls, she does some pretty creative things to try to get them to be kinder to each other.
Dan Meyer (10:54):
OK. That’s one.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:55):
Helen Case.
Dan Meyer (10:57):
All right. Settle down. Settle down. Settle down. All right.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:59):
Piano too!
Dan Meyer (11:00):
Bethany’s already trying to bias people here. All right. Chill out. Hold on. So next one is Mandy Jansen with Jack Black from School of Rock. Uh-oh. Uh-oh.
Jack Black in School of Rock (11:09):
“What was your name?”
Kid in School of Rock (11:10):
“Katie.”
Jack Black in School of Rock (11:11):
“Katie. What was that thing you were playing today? The big thing.”
Kid in School of Rock (11:14):
“Cello.”
Jack Black in School of Rock (11:15):
“OK. This is a bass guitar and it’s the exact same thing, but instead of playing like this, you tip it on the side. Chellooooo! You’ve got a bass! <Laugh> Try it on.”
Mandy Jansen (11:25):
And I’m nominating for best teacher in a film Jack Black as Dewey Finn playing Mr. Ned Schneebly in the film School of Rock. So why this portrayal? First of all, playing a longterm sub. Those are so hard to find right now. <Audience laughs> Really hard. And then he teaches using class projects. That’s brilliant. Integrated learning. And then love this. He gives students roles and tasks that are differentiated and align to the specific strengths that each student has.
Kid 2 in School of Rock (12:05):
“I can also play clarinet, you know!”
Jack Black in School of Rock (12:06):
“I’ll find something for you when we get back from lunch. I’ll assign the rest of you killer positions.”
Mandy Jansen (12:13):
And the film culminates in a performance of a collaborative song that they all wrote and performed together. And the students experience that collaboration and teamwork and creating something beautiful is much more important than winning first place. And finally, one of the songs that the character sings in the film is “Math is a Wonderful Thing.” Can’t beat that.
Dan Meyer (12:40):
All right. That’s tough. That’s tough. So here’s the deal. What we have right now is just a quick minute—so Bethany, you ranked, we all ranked our own faves here outta the list of eight. And Bethany put Jack Black in School of Rock a bit higher than Tina Fey in Mean Girls.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (12:54):
Missed the piano part though.
Dan Meyer (12:55):
And Chris, vice versa here. So Bethany, would you start us off and just make a quick case here for Jack Black versus Tina Fey?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (13:01):
OK. So here’s what I’m thinking. There’s been rumor that maybe they’re putting less than credentialed people into classrooms to fill teaching gaps. I mean, just rumor. And so here’s this guy who is a rocker. He is not a substitute. He has no teaching training. And yet he goes in there and it turns out that he has the ability to see students’ potential and to recognize their unique abilities. And like Mandy said, he really tapped into, like, he saw them and said, “No, more is possible for you than what you think is possible.” And there’s like real sub anxiety. When you walk in, you can either be like, happy there’s a sub, but I was usually really nervous. Right? And he goes in and he makes that classroom into a home.
Dan Meyer (13:53):
Wow.
Chris Nho (13:54):
Wow.
Dan Meyer (13:56):
Chris, speak on it. Tina Fey needs you. Chris.
Chris Nho (13:59):
Tina Fey. Here we go. I’m gonna argue here that—when was that movie made?
Dan Meyer (14:03):
T is for terrific. I is for Interesting.
Chris Nho (14:06):
Decades ago. And I’m gonna argue that Tina Fey was very progressive for her time. OK, let’s talk about social emotional learning. Hello. <Audience laughs> Love that. Right? Stand up if, I mean, she’s getting people to talk about their emotions. And there’s a curriculum. But let’s just pause, because that’s not what’s really happening in the classroom right now. So social emotional learning, I think she’s, she’s got that a lot. And then number two, you know, if you remember the plot of Mean Girls a little bit, she gets her name written in that Burn Book. Like she sees what they say about her. Restorative justice. Let’s go. <Audience laughs>.
Dan Meyer (14:38):
Whom amongst us. Yes.
Chris Nho (14:40):
You write Mr. Nho in the Burn Book?? Well, your grade book is gonna look like a Burn Book! OK? <Audience laughs> Tina Fey, Tina Fey, she was like, “No, you know, know what? I’m actually gonna spend more time with you. You’re gonna become a mathlete.” And Lindsay Lohan discovers—she drops the most iconic line in all of math education. “The limit does not exist.” Thank you, Tina Fey, for that. For that gift.
Dan Meyer (15:04):
Bless. Bless you. Tina Fey. Wow.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (15:05):
Oh, man. Wow.
Dan Meyer (15:09):
Let’s see what the people say here. I do wanna just add one quick thing about—it’s interesting to me how often in these movies—just kind of go in a little bit, zoom out just a minute—how often it’s a teacher who has no training as a teacher. <Bethany laughs> I am kind of curious why it is. Like, those are the movies that get hot, that get made. Again, these are all kind of a mirror of the taste of the moviegoing public. You know what I’m saying? Like, these, these are not movies—I wanna believe they are made for me and for us as teachers. But they are not. There’s not enough of us to justify, you know, Jack Black’s, you know, M&M budget or whatever he’s got going on in his trailer or whatever. That needs to be for everybody in middle-class America. So what is it about middle-class America that wants to see teaching as something that anybody can do? Just like, you know, just, just run up there in your van and make it happen.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (15:54):
Magic magically manifests.
Dan Meyer (15:56):
Yeah. Manifest. Yeah. That’s just interesting to me. I just toss that out there as some red meat. Let’s see what the people say here. All right, OK, so you’re ready. Let’s get the bracket going here. The question is Tina Fey versus Jack Black. You had a moment here. Just whisper to someone real fast who you’re going for here real quick. What are you thinking here? <Crowd murmuring> All right. Crowd’s buzzing. Crowd’s buzzing. Would you folks…? All right. Bring it back. Go ahead and make some noise for Tina Fey. <Crowd cheers> OK. OK. Make some noise for Jack Black! <Crowd cheers> Judges say Tina Fey. Tina Fey moves on. All right. All right.
Chris Nho (16:44):
Stunned. I’m stunned. I’m speechless.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:46):
Tina Fey moves on. Wow.
Dan Meyer (16:48):
This has exceeded my expectations in terms of having some fun, but also getting deep, getting deep and real about teaching. I’m into this right here. Yeah. What’s up?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:54):
That’s the goal. That’s the goal. OK. You wanted blood? Oooh, this next matchup might just be where that blood comes forth! OK. Stretch. Warm up. Dan Meyer, who’s up next?
Dan Meyer (17:11):
We’ve got the animated/animatronic round here in the Southeast. And repping the two contestants here, who do we have? We have Allison Hintz, professor, author outta Washington, as one of the two nominators. And the other nominator is one of my heroes, though we’ll find out very wrong about this nomination, Jenna Laib, who’s in the crowd, and I’m trying not to make eye contact here. <Laugh> And here are the two nominations. A couple minutes each. And then we’ll chat about it. And one of us will probably die. But we’ll see how it goes.
Allison Hintz (17:50):
A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, MTL, we began learning from the Jedi Master of Teaching. With the Socratic and experiential approach. With unparalleled mindfulness, compassion, and humility. The best teacher in TV and film, Yoda is. <Audience laughs> Yoda lives the values we share as teachers and learners. He humbly comes alongside us as we construct new knowledge.
Yoda (18:29):
“You must unlearn what you have learned.”
Allison Hintz (18:32):
Yoda allows us to struggle and sees mistakes as critical to learning.
Yoda (18:39):
“The greatest teacher, failure is.”
Allison Hintz (18:43):
Yoda values curiosity and reminds us of the beauty and joy of teachers learning from children.
Yoda (18:52):
“Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.”
Allison Hintz (18:59):
MTL! Join the Resistance! Let the force flow through you in declaring, the best teacher in TV and film, Yoda is.
Dan Meyer (19:18):
Give it up for Allison Hintz! All right! <Audience applauds>
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:20):
Alison! And to have that on hand too, which Is kind of perfect.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:26):
Just to be clear, the helmet is not a part of a Zoom background.
Dan Meyer (19:29):
You may evaluate the quality of the nomination based on the costumes of the nominator. That is acceptable. That’s acceptable.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:35):
That is a REAL HELMET.
Dan Meyer (19:35):
All right. The next nominator here, this one is from Jenna Laib, math coach, all-around stellar human. Here we go. This is Ms. Frizzle.
Ms. Frizzle (19:42):
“Single file, class. Our rotten field trip has only just begun.”
Jenna Laib (19:47):
And I think that the best teacher from TV or movies is Ms .Valerie Frizzle from The Magic School Bus. First and foremost, Ms. Frizzle believes in her students. She encourages them to take an active role in their learning, and also to advocate for change in their local community. For example, there’s an episode where there is a logger who’s gonna cut down a rotting log that would benefit the local ecosystem. And the students figure out a way to convince him to leave the log so that all of the animals and the plant life can benefit. She orchestrates really challenging situations for these students, and she allows them the space to ask questions and engage in problem-solving and puzzle their way out of these really, really difficult scenarios. Ms. Frizzle has unmatched pedagogy. She’s bold, she’s innovative, and she’s a major proponent of experiential learning. So these students are heading straight into a storm to learn about weather systems. <Audience laughs> These students are heading into the human body to learn about digestion and disease. They literally get baked into a cake to learn about some chemistry and reactions.
Children in The Magic School Bus (20:54):
“What’s happening?” <Audience laughs> “Why is it suddenly getting so hot?” “Maybe it’s because the floor is on fire!” <Audience laughs>
Jenna Laib (21:02):
This pedagogy is all led by her outstanding catchphrase, which is:
Ms. Frizzle (21:06):
“Take chances; make mistakes; get messy!”
Jenna Laib (21:14):
From her pedagogy to the classroom community that she creates, Ms. Frizzle is an inspiration, and that is why I think that she is the best teacher from TV or film. <Audience applauds>
Dan Meyer (21:25):
Right on! Give it up for Jenna. Give it up for Jenna. All right. I’m gonna take first pass at this. Chris knows my argument already, so I’m gonna take this here. I see some of you are feeling how I’m feeling on this one. OK, so I don’t have tons to say in favor of Yoda. I think it was all true what Allison said. I think the costume was banging. It was awesome. So there’s all that, but I have more to say against Ms. Frizzle than for Yoda.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (21:48):
No, no, no. Wait a second!
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (21:49):
Let’s let it happen. Bethany, I’ve come prepared.
Dan Meyer (21:54):
I may have made a misstep here, I realize.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (21:56):
I’ve come prepared.
Dan Meyer (21:56):
So I think Jenna is all correct. I think those clips spoke for themselves. I think that what they add up to, to me, is not “great teacher,” but more “someone who should be locked up.” <Audience laughs> Or at the very minimum, “someone who should be kept away from children.” <Audience laughs> Do not let that woman around children. I mean, check it out. Look, I don’t wanna throw down credentials. I’ve been to grad school, though. I know how this works. When your brain is stressed, you get these—all the cortisol happens. Your working memory shrinks up. You cannot learn when you’re stressed. And those kids, like whatever lesson Ms. Frizzle is teaching by sending them into an oven, I repeat, an oven <audience laughs>, like, they’re not gonna learn anything ’cause their brains are freaking out with stress and fear. OK?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (22:41):
“What’s happening??”
Dan Meyer (22:43):
“What’s happening? Am I on fire? Well…I’m learning lots, though! Sure is magical!” <Audience laughs> It’s like, “No. Get that woman out of a classroom.” That’s my opening and closing argument. Right? There’s all it is.
Chris Nho (23:01):
All right. All right. All right.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (23:02):
Chris knows.
Chris Nho (23:03):
I’ve got, I’ve got lots to say. First off, I think Dan was in charge of the editing of those video clips. So let’s let that be—you know, let the record stand. <Audience laughs>
Dan Meyer (23:11):
Where’s the lie though? Where’s the lie?
Chris Nho (23:14):
And, you know, second, I think, um—this is the guy up here saying, “I wanna see blood.” You know? And then he has a teacher who literally takes the students into a blood cell and, and you get a little scared! You get a little worried for the students, you know? So I just don’t get it, Dan. This or that. OK? I think Ms. Frizzle—so I actually went to a project-based learning school. I taught at a project-based learning school. And the best thing about it is like, your learning, it doesn’t just stay in this box of math lesson or writing lesson, history lesson. And I think with Ms. Frizzle, like you can’t help but learn things because you are getting baked in a cake. <Audience laughs> Yeah, it is a little scary. And I imagine there’s cortisol and things happening, but guess what? Probably the next episode, they go into their own brains and explore what’s happening. That kind of thing. You know?
Dan Meyer (24:07):
The kids that survived, just be clear. <Audience laughs>
Chris Nho (24:10):
Yeah. OK. Would I want Nora, my three-month-old, to be babysat by Ms. Frizzle? Maybe not. <Audience laughs> But what I have to say about Yoda is Yoda maybe wins the best tutor award. Give it up for Yoda’s Best Tutor Award.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (24:24):
Oh, yeah…
Chris Nho (24:25):
That ratio’s looking really nice. I could teach the heck outta Luke Skywalker. OK? But 20 little Luke Skywalkers running around. I’m not sure. OK?
Dan Meyer (24:34):
Luke did survive the training, though. <Audience laughs> So that’s awfully nice to say about it. All right, Great words from Chris here. I’m still not convinced. We’ll see how you’re convinced here. Would you whisper to someone where you’re leaning here? Frizzle or Yoda? <Audience buzzing>
Chris Nho (24:47):
I tried. I tried.
Dan Meyer (24:53):
All right. That’s enough of that. Let’s hear it folks. Give it up for Yoda. <Audience cheers> Give it up. Give it up. You. Give. It. Up.
Chris Nho (25:05):
Hey, next. Next.
Dan Meyer (25:06):
All right. All right, all right. <Mutters> Give it up for Ms. Frizzle. <Audience cheers louder> I dunno, it’s pretty close. Call a tie. Maybe Yoda? Yoda by nose? <Audience laughs> All right. All right. Let’s…let me see who’s it. Let’s get the people advancing here. I’ll keep on moving here.
Chris Nho (25:26):
As you’re doing that. Um, Dan ranked Ms. Frizzle last in his personal ranking. And I ranked Ms. Frizzle very high, so we knew this one would be spicy,
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (25:36):
<laugh> Spicy it was. Are you having a good time so far? <Audience cheers> So while we love seeing these images and we love seeing these video clips, at the core, what are these things about how teachers are portrayed? And how accurate is that to our real lives? I mean, besides the cake part, right? That my chemistry class did often feel like I was on fire. I was so stressed in it. Um, we’re ready?
Dan Meyer (26:05):
Yep. Great. We’re ready, we’re up here. So the next two nominees are coming to you folks from Tracy Zager, who is the editor of my book, forthcoming in 2027 at the earliest and 2032 at the latest. And also your very own Zak Champagne from Florida, here in the room. Hey, Zak. Zak, let’s see who the nominations are. I’m gonna skip past that, didn’t work out so well for me. Here it is. This is Marshall Kane from the TV show Community.
Michael K. Williams in Community (26:32):
“You two complete your case to the class and let them decide your grades.”
Joel McHale in Community (26:37):
“Professor, thank you.”
Michael K. Williams in Community (26:40):
“It’s not a favor, Mr. Winger. Man’s gotta have a code.”
Joel McHale in Community (26:44):
“Awesome.”
Zak Champagne (26:46):
This is a pitch for an underdog. This teacher didn’t stand on desks or encourage his students to follow their musical passions. In fact, this teacher was seen only in a few episodes of my favorite TV show of all time, Community, Community has set at Greendale Community College in Colorado. And in season three, we get to meet Dr. Marshall Kane, a biology professor whose story is an inspiration to anyone who just takes the time to look and listen. Dr. Marshall Kane slowly earned his PhD while in prison, serving a sentence of 25 to life. In his classroom, he inspires students to love biology, question why LEGO has become so complicated, and randomly pairs his students for group projects to ensure no one feels left out. His greatest performance comes when a group of students believe their yam project was intentionally sabotaged. Dr. Kane took this as an opportunity for some trans-disciplinary real-world learning. So yes, at community college, he felt that a middle-school mock trial was the best way to determine who killed the yam. So let’s all pick the underdog and vote for Dr. Marshall Kane. After all, man’s gotta have a code. <Audience goes “oh!” and applauds>
Dan Meyer (27:53):
Thank you, Zak.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (27:54):
I have a code.
Dan Meyer (27:56):
Next up is Tracy Zager, nominating an unusual nomination, not a single person, but an ensemble performance. A bunch of people from a movie called Searching for Bobby Fisher. Here we go.
Rapid-fire movie dialogue (28:11):
“What’s that?” “Schleimann attack.” “Schleimann attack? Where’d you learn that from, a book?” “No, my teacher taught me.” “Aw, your teacher. Well, forget it. Play like you used to, from the gut. Get your pawns rolling on the queen’s side.”
Tracy Zager (28:26):
Hey, Math Teacher Lounge. This is Tracy Zager. I’m excited to share my nominee for the best movie teacher. But I have to admit that when I first got the email, I thought, oh, who am I gonna nominate? Because most movies about teachers are highly problematic. They usually have like a saviorism thing, usually white saviors. And I just felt like I couldn’t suggest any of those. So rather than nominate a movie about a single teacher, I wanted to nominate a movie that taught me something about teaching. And that movie is a deep cut. It’s Searching for Bobby Fischer. It’s a movie about a chess prodigy. And what I love about it is that all of the different adults in the movie are in teacher roles in some way. And the student, Josh, the chess player, is a fully realized character, not an empty pail, who pulls from the strengths of each one of those adults while also dealing with their flaws and humanity. And there’s just beautiful synergy in the way he gets the best out of everybody, but also has to overcome some of the barriers that they put in front of him. So I feel like it’s a much more authentic and humbling, but also inspiring, movie about the power of teaching. So if you haven’t ever seen it, check it out. And I can’t wait to see who the other nominees are. Thanks so much.
Dan Meyer (29:53):
Right on. Thank you, Tracy. Wherever you are. <Applause> We’ll move a little quicker here. I’m curious, Bethany, you put Marshall Kane pretty high. I put Bobby Fischer pretty high. What do you have to say about Marshall Kane for us here?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (30:04):
Well, I just wanna say two things. One is that, like Zak said, he has this code of conduct that he brings in. And he stays true to it no matter what happens. If you saw him in in Community, you know that he held himself up to such high esteem, but not just himself, his students as well. And he took accountability when he felt he had done wrong, even though, well, that’s controversy. But first—oh, the other thing, rest in peace, Michael K. Williams. Oh my gosh. The actor who plays Marshall K. And the thing that I wanna say most of all about it is that he brings his whole self to the classroom. He was in prison for decades. He brings his whole self and says, “This is who I was. This is who I am today. And this is how we can work together as a community.”
Dan Meyer (30:58):
That’s big. I love your comments about code of conduct too. It makes me wish that Ms. Frizzle had a code of conduct also.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (31:05):
I knew that was coming back!
Chris Nho (31:06):
Two slides ago, Dan. That was two slides ago.
Dan Meyer (31:08):
Can’t let it go. So yeah, I love what you said there. I have no strong beef here either way. Bobby Fischer’s a movie I have loved dearly and can’t be objective about it. I love that the kid in that movie, more than any other movie here, the kid teaches the adults so much through his innocence and how he challenges them and how they’re treating him. Dig all that so much. Will not, will not begrudge anyone any vote either way here. I do begrudge many of you your vote in previous rounds. <Audience laughs> So let’s just, let’s hear. We’re not gonna ask you folks at all to chitchat. We’re gonna move on this one. So would you folks make some noise here for Marshall Kane in Community? OK. OK. And would you make some noise here for Bobby Fischer, the kid in Bobby Fischer, the ensemble? <Audience cheers, applauds>
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (31:56):
Marshall Kane.
Dan Meyer (31:57):
Marshall Kane takes it. All right. Good job, Marshall Kane! All right. Zak’s feeling good. Moving on to the final four here, Zak, right on. OK. Our last—the Northwest Division here is also the large urban district division here. We have a couple different teachers in sets of large urban schools. They’re nominated, they’re advanced by a couple people here. One is past president of NCTM, Robert Berry. And another is Fawn Nguyen, Southern California phenom. Great teacher and friend of lots of us. Um, let’s see who they nominated here. First from Robert Berry, let’s see, who is it here? Janine Teagues from Abbott Elementary.
Abbott Elementary dialogue (32:37):
“Hey, you know what? I’m probably probably gonna be Kenny’s second-grade teacher. Why don’t you just let him get a head start with me today?” “That’d be great.” “Yeah? OK. Hey, Kenny, would you like to be in my group today?” “Not really.” “That’s the spirit.”
Robert Berry (32:54):
My nomination is gonna be Quinta Brunson, the Emmy Award-winning Quinta Brunson from Abbott Elementary. Janine Teagues is the character. She exemplifies care not only from an affect way, but she also exemplifies care in the things that she does for her students. While the scenes in the show are entertaining, they do represent the challenges that teachers experience when they’re trying to meet the needs of her students. So she goes, goes all out for her students and finding resources. She accesses other people to get resources for her students. But the care shows up in the way that she is mindful of their needs. And so, for me, when I think about teachers and teaching, sometimes we can talk about pedagogy, but sometimes we also can talk about those kind of intangibles that makes a teacher a great teacher. It is apparent from her students that she cares about them, she supports them, and she goes all out 100% for her students. Janine Teagues, Quinta Brunson is, I think, is my choice of the best teacher on television because of the realism and the representation that she brings to this character of what teaching is about. <Applause>
Dan Meyer (34:28):
Right on. Right on. OK. OK. Next up, we’ve got, Fawn Nguyen is nominating Erin Gruwell from Freedom Writers. Here we go.
Hilary Swank in Freedom Writers movie (34:39):
“Look, you can either sit in your seats reading those workbooks or you can play a game. Either way, you’re in here till the bell rings. OK? This is called the Line Game. I’m gonna ask you a question. If that question applies to you, you step onto the line and then step back away for the next question. Easy, right? The first question. How many of you have the new Snoop Dog album? <kids move around> OK, back away. Next question. How many of you have seen Boys in the Hood?”
Fawn Nguyen (35:26):
We all learn about Miss G and her 150 students in the movie Freedom Writers starring Hilary Swank. All great teachers share a common set of traits. They care deeply about their students, have high expectations of them, and always believing wholeheartedly that they will succeed. Great teachers go above and beyond, not because they extraordinary—as Anne Gruwell would always refer to herself as an ordinary teacher—but because extraordinary things happen to people when we believe in them, give them hope, help them write their own story with a different ending. So what stood out for me with Miss G is the scope of her reach, the ever-expanding sphere of her humanity. The red tape she had placed on the classroom floor for the line game shows just how much we all have in common despite our differences. Her students didn’t just learn from her; they learned from one another. If you’d like to be part of this expanding sphere to give voice and hope, please check out Freedom Writers Foundation dot org.
Dan Meyer (36:38):
OK. This right here is a tough one for us. Thank you, Fawn. We collectively ranked—that’s our number one seed and number eight seed, which I hasten to say does not have to do with Erin Gruwell, a person, but the portrayal and the movie. So we don’t have like a whole lot of…there’s not a lot of defense we have to offer here of our eighth seed. And I heard like a kind of a little bit of a murmur over the crowd on Erin Gruwell. So I’m more interested than having a defense back and forth. I’d be curious what you, Bethany, think about what, like, what both movies have to say about like, what teaching is, especially teaching urban schools with black and brown kids and lower-class kids, for instance. They both have, I think, very different things to say about them. Do you have thoughts about that?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (37:19):
Well, it’s interesting because there is some overlap in the sense that the arguments that both Fawn and Robert Berry put out, they both care deeply about their students, right? We’re not gonna argue that. They care deeply. And something that I would say about Miss Teagues is there’s something about the way that she sees not only her classroom, her students, but she sees all of the students in the school as her students. And her idea of resource generation is really helping the teachers to generate resources from their community themselves, and to also realize that the students see themselves reflected in the teachers. And I think that—you know, again, this is not about the real person—but the movie portrayal, and we often see kind of this, for Freedom Writers, we often see this like, Great Last Hope whisked in and her personal sacrifices are what makes these students, these brown and black students’ transformation possible. Because of her sacrifices. Including her marriage. Including, you know, three jobs. And it’s just portrayed in a way that I think really celebrates her sacrifices rather than what the students have already brought—they already come into the room bringing so much as they are, already, without her intervention.
Dan Meyer (38:38):
I love the portrayal of the teacher as part of a community of teachers. Versus in so many of these movies, it’s the teacher as the only person who gets it, you know, oftentimes coming from outside of the world of teaching and everyone’s against them and wants ’em just to fall in line and do the thing we always do, and they’re the outlier. But in Abbott Elementary, it’s like we all rise and we fall together. And teachers are investing in each other’s success, especially with Gregory the longterm sub. We’re all rooting for his, you know, his flourishing. I love that. And yeah. That’s bigtime.
Chris Nho (39:09):
Yeah, I think one interesting thing is that Freedom Writers, when it came out, I think it was like a commercial success.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (39:17):
Oh, big time. Yeah. It was.
Chris Nho (39:18):
It probably influenced a lot of people to try teaching out. So I do wonder what it says about us, right? Like that we want teaching to fit this narrative, and we wanna be those people who could go into a classroom and <puts on “cool voice”> “Y’all listen to Snoop Dog?” and just have that question HIT. <laughter> And you know, I’ve taught in a large urban school district, and I’ve been that person and I’ve seen other people try and be that person. And I think stepping away from it a little bit, just—it’s a reflection of what people want out of teaching and what they think better education looks like.
Dan Meyer (39:57):
Yeah, yeah. This idea that, so I’m a middle-class person, let’s say, and like, there’s this idea, like, “I know what I would do if I was going into circumstances of impoverishment.” Like I have—
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (40:06):
“All they really need is…”
Dan Meyer (40:07):
…for me to give ’em some real talk and tell ’em, you know, pull their pants up or whatever, listen to Snoop Dog, that kind of thing. And that will be the key. And that’s not how it is in, you know, in Jack Black in School of Rock or Tina Fey school, which are, you know, coded as largely like upper-class or largely white schools. And in those movies, it’s interesting, like how it’s about students discovering themselves, oftentimes. And the central figures are often students. And the students need to reject an oppressive parent figure or something and find themselves. But no, in Freedom Writers, it’s like, “You need to become more like the middle-class teachers who are coming in here to give you this wisdom.” It’s just interesting. I do find it—a pet peeve of mine is when movies portray teachers as only successful if you endure, for instance, the failure of your marriage, or even in Stand and Deliver, for instance, like Jaime Escalante, they depict him having a heart attack. And, like, the job oughta be…easier. <Audience laughs>
Chris Nho (41:04):
Truth.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (41:05):
That’s the barometer for how much….
Dan Meyer (41:09):
Like, no heart attacks and no divorces related to the job, that kind of thing. I do love how in Abbott—one last thing and we’ll vote and Abbott will win <audience laughs>—is like how, like there, there is a lot of degradation in Abbott, but it’s not a divorce or a heart attack—it’s the petty indignities of asking a student, “Do you wanna hang with me?” And a student says, “Nah, not really.” And that just spoke to me like how it’s not cinematic, but teaching, successful teaching, is like a collection of developing an immunity to students saying, “You’re not hot.” <Laugh> You know? And so I love that. I do wish that there was more depiction of students in Abbott Elementary. It’s a lot of adult stuff. Whatever. Give it up for Abbott, if you would, please. Let’s just get this done here. All right. That’s plenty. That’s plenty. Not gonna ask folks about Freedom Writers. OK, let’s move on to— all right, let’s hear it for Freedom Writers! Yeah. OK, cool. We go, yep.
Chris Nho (42:05):
Plot twist!
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:07):
OK, let’s see our final four. Cut and paste. Real time. Real time.
Audience member (42:12):
Where’s Dolores Umbridge?
Dan Meyer (42:14):
Oh….
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:16):
Hey, did you hear that? He said, “Where’s Dolores Umbridge?”
Dan Meyer (42:20):
All right. OK.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:20):
See, we missed so many. We could…
Dan Meyer (42:21):
So coming up here, we’ve got in the Eastern Conference, Tina Fey and Ms. Frizzle. Y’all know how I feel about that one. Let’s just get this one done. OK, let’s give it up for Tina Fey. Let’s hear it. <Audience cheers> OK. All right. Yes! Let’s give it up for menace to children everywhere, the terror, the Ms. Frizzle. <Audience cheers> One more time for Tina Fey. Let’s hear it. <Audience cheers> One more time for Ms. Frizzle. Let’s hear it. <Audience cheers>
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:59):
Yeah. OK.
Dan Meyer (43:00):
It took ’em one round, but they made the right call in the end. <Laugh>
Chris Nho (43:04):
All it took was 10 minutes of constant Ms. Frizzle-bashing. <Laugh>
Dan Meyer (43:09):
Persevering and problem-solving, that’s my game. Yes. All right. So, do either of you want to influence the audience one way or the other?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (43:16):
That’s not how I play, Dan.
Dan Meyer (43:18):
Oh, OK. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. You’re good. On Abbott versus Marshall Kane, should we just let ’em have it? All right. All right. Give it up For Abbott Elementary. Not bad. And for Marshall Kane. OK. OK. I hear Zak and five other people. All right, cool. <laugh> Right on. All right. We got our, we got our finals,
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (43:45):
We did it. We made it to two. And we know: We left out a lot of people. Right? And honestly, I kind of wish we could poll like everyone. I mean, think you put it on Twitter, right? Like, who would you pick? But I would say we had a pretty solid eight there. I’m excited to see who… Look at the little crown he put, you guys. Come on.
Dan Meyer (44:05):
I worked hard for you. For you. <Laugh> Yeah. I liked that it was a good bunch that had a lot of different kinds of qualities…and lack of qualities in some cases. And it allowed us that—I shouldn’t knock her while she’s down, and she IS down, it’s true. <Laugh> And I appreciate the conversation we’ve had, what they have revealed overall about teaching and what the world wants teaching to be versus what it actually is or actually should be. I appreciate that. So let’s settle this here. Give it up, if you would, for Abbott Elementary. <Audience cheers> And give it up for Tina Fey in Mean Girls. <Audience cheers>
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (44:49):
Wow.
Dan Meyer (44:51):
That was close. I almost give that to Tina Fey.
Audience member (44:55):
Yeah, we do!
Dan Meyer (44:55):
I don’t know. That was a bracket-buster for me right there. Yeah. I lost money in the office pool off that right there. Maybe let’s just find out one more time here. One more time.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (45:03):
Last time.
Dan Meyer (45:03):
Time to summon up all your conviction on one or the other here. No half-measures right now. All right.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (45:07):
Emmy Award-winning Quinta Brunson.
Dan Meyer (45:09):
Yeah, you saw Robert Berry on that, right? He was like, “Oh, I got one more card to play. Emmy Award-winning.” That’s admissible. That’s admissible. We’ll take that. All right. So…give it up for Abbott Elementary, one last time. <Audience cheers> OK. All right. All right. And give it up for Tina Fey in Mean Girls. <Audience cheers>
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (45:30):
Drumroll, please!
Chris Nho (45:33):
Best teacher is….
Dan Meyer (45:34):
Tina Fey in Mean Girls! Yeah. Not a bad pick.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (45:39):
I love it. And I think, too, I think we’re gonna have a little bit of a more reflective lens than we thought we did when we see depictions of teachers in film and television. And, you know, hopefully we’ll see some new tropes come in, right?
Dan Meyer (45:55):
Yep. Yeah. Every dollar we spend on movies with lousy teachers is just encouraging these people to make more lousy teacher movies, you know? Awesome. Thank you for being here for a live taping—
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (46:06):
Thank you for being here.
Dan Meyer (46:06):
—of our podcast, Math Teacher Lounge, in a hot room. Appreciate that. Yeah, it’s been fun for us to have you here. Um, super-important, super-important final remark: Bethany loves Oprah and Oprah occasionally, in the show—
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (46:18):
Is she coming?! Is she here?!
Dan Meyer (46:19):
Not here! Not here! Calm down. Calm down. Um, but we do have in Oprah fashion, not something—
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (46:24):
Oh. Oh, OK. Oh, that’s, that’s OK. Sorry. I got, had really excited for a second. As if the Amplify playing cards, The Amplify t-shirts being chucked at you at high speed—I did try to get a t-shirt cannon, and that was quickly ruled out <laugh>. They didn’t know about my rocket arm, right?
Dan Meyer (46:46):
Yeah, you got a cannon. <Laugh>
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (46:47):
Yeah. Oh, that’s a compliment. Oh, is that a compliment? Thank you, Dan. Thank you. Look under your seat because we have five winners. We wanna thank you for being here in person. We wanna thank the folks who are listening. We wanna thank Amplify. Oh my God. Somebody just pulled off the chair tag. You get to take that chair home with you.
Dan Meyer (47:08):
Does anybody have a prize?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (47:10):
OK, stand up if you…stand up if you…Yes! Stand up if you have one!
Dan Meyer (47:16):
Free set of classroom dry-erase boards, right here. Congratulations.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (47:22):
And for you who pulled off the chair tag, I don’t know. We gotta we gotta find something for you.
Dan Meyer (47:27):
Put that in your backpack.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (47:30):
Thank you again for being here. Thank you. Amplify. Thank you, Desmos. Thank you. Dan Meyer.
Dan Meyer (47:36):
Thank you folks. Chris, thank you buddy.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (47:38):
Chris! Chris Nho, everybody!
Dan Meyer (47:40):
We will be, we will be at—Bethany and I will be at the booth, if you wanna chit-chat and hang out, sign some stuff. Whatever. You wanna have Bethany sign you, she’ll do that. Um, come on down to the Amplify booth and we’ll—
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (47:50):
We’ll talk to you more about Ms. Frizzle.
Dan Meyer (47:52):
Fun and prizes. I will share with my real thoughts about Ms. Frizzle down there. I’d love to see you. Thanks for being here, folks.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (47:57):
Thanks for listening. Bye.
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Meet the guests
Dan Meyer
Dan Meyer taught high school math to students who didn’t like high school math. He has advocated for better math instruction on CNN, Good Morning America, Everyday With Rachel Ray, and TED.com. He earned his doctorate from Stanford University in math education and is currently the Dean of Research at Desmos, where he explores the future of math, technology, and learning. Dan has worked with teachers internationally and in all 50 United States and was named one of Tech & Learning’s 30 Leaders of the Future.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson
Bethany Lockhart Johnson is an elementary school educator and author. Prior to serving as a multiple-subject teacher, she taught theater and dance and now loves incorporating movement and creative play into her classroom. Bethany is committed to helping students find joy in discovering their identities as mathematicians. In addition to her role as a full-time classroom teacher, Bethany is a Student Achievement Partners California Core Advocate and is active in national and local mathematics organizations. Bethany is a member of the Illustrative Mathematics Elementary Curriculum Steering Committee and serves as a consultant, creating materials to support families during distance learning.
About Math Teacher Lounge: The podcast
Math Teacher Lounge is a biweekly podcast created specifically for K–12 math educators. In each episode co-hosts Bethany Lockhart Johnson (@lockhartedu) and Dan Meyer (@ddmeyer) chat with guests, taking a deep dive into the math and educational topics you care about.
Join the Math Teacher Lounge Facebook group to continue the conversation, view exclusive content, interact with fellow educators, participate in giveaways, and more!
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S3-04: Using AI and ChatGPT in the science classroom
In the latest episode of the Science Connections podcast, we explore AI in education and its impact on students. Listen as I sit down with teachers Donnie Piercey and Jennifer Roberts to discuss ChatGPT and how we can use it to build science and literacy skills in K–12 classrooms while preparing students for the real world.
And don’t forget to grab your Science Connections study guide to track your learning and find additional resources!
We hope you enjoy this episode and explore more from Science Connections by visiting our main page!
Jennifer Roberts (00:00:00):
If a kid graduates from school without knowing that AI exists, they’re not gonna be prepared for what they face out in the world.
Eric Cross (00:00:07):
Welcome to Science Connections. I’m your host, Eric Cross.
Eric Cross (00:00:12):
This season of the podcast, we’re making the case for everyone’s favorite underdog, science. Recently we’ve been highlighting the magic that can come from integrating science and literacy. So if you haven’t checked out those recent episodes, definitely go back in your feed after you’re done with this one. This time around, we’re going to deep dive into what artificial intelligence means for literacy instruction, and how science can be a force for good, in responsibly exposing students to AI. To help me out, I’m joined by two extremely accomplished educators. Jen Roberts, a veteran high-school English teacher from San Diego, who among many things runs the website LitAndTech.com. And I’m also joined by fifth-grade teacher Donnie Piercey. In addition to being Kentucky’s 2021 Teacher of the Year, Donnie also has an upcoming book about bringing AI into the classroom. Whether you’ve never heard of ChatGPT or whether you’re already using it every day, I think you’ll find this a valuable discussion about the intersection of science, English, and technology. Here’s Jen and Donnie.
Eric Cross (00:01:17):
So first off, welcome to the show. It’s good to see you all. What I wanna do is kind of start off by introducing both of you. And so we’ll just go K–12. So <laugh>, Donnie.
Jennifer Roberts (00:01:30):
Donnie goes first.
Eric Cross (00:01:31):
Donnie’s gonna go first. Donnie out in Kentucky. Just a little background. What do you teach; how long you’ve been in the classroom; and what are you having fun with right now?
Donnie Piercey (00:01:38):
Yeah, so my name is Donnie Piercey. I’m a fifth-grade teacher from Kentucky. Live and teach right here in Lexington, Kentucky, right in the center of the state. I’m the 2021 Kentucky Teacher of the Year. But I’ve been teaching elementary school for the past … I think this is year 16 or 17. It’s long enough where I’ve lost count, and I can’t even count on fingers anymore. My friends like to joke that I’ve taught long enough where now I can count down. You know, it’s like, “All right, only so many more years left.” But yeah, teach all subjects. Science definitely is one of the subjects that I don’t just try to squeeze into my day, but make sure that … it’s not even a devoted subject, but one that I definitely try to — don’t just have that set time, but also try to do some cross-curricular stuff with it. So definitely the rise of AI in these past few months, which feels like years by this point, has definitely played quite the role, in not just changing the way that I’ve been teaching science, but really all my subjects. So, excited to chat with y’all about it.
Eric Cross (00:02:47):
Nice. I’m excited that you’re here. And Jen?
Jennifer Roberts (00:02:51):
Hi, I’m Jen Roberts. I teach ninth-grade English at Point Loma High School, and that’s where I usually stop when I introduce myself. But for your sake—
Eric Cross (00:03:00):
I will keep introducing you if you stop there. <laugh>
Jennifer Roberts (00:03:04):
I am nationally board-certified in English Language Arts for early adolescence. I am the co-author of a book called Power Up: Making the Shift to 1:1 Teaching and Learning, from Stenhouse, with my fabulous co-author Diana Neebe. Shout out to Diana. I blog at LitAndTech.com about teaching and technology and literacy and the intersection of those things. And I’m looking forward to talking about how AI is showing up in my classroom and the fun things I’m doing with it.
Donnie Piercey (00:03:31):
And one of us is actually secretly a robot, and you have to guess which one.
Jennifer Roberts (00:03:35):
Have to guess which one. Yes. <laugh>
Eric Cross (00:03:37):
That would be super-meta. And you were the CUE — Computer-Using Educator — outstanding teacher or educator? Whatever. Either one. Of the year.
Jennifer Roberts (00:03:45):
I was the CUE ’22 Outstanding Educator. Yes. And I’ve won a few other things as well.
Eric Cross (00:03:53):
The gaming backpack.
Jennifer Roberts (00:03:54):
I’ve won a gaming backpack recently! Yes. I once won an iPad in a Twitter chat.
Eric Cross (00:03:58):
What?
Donnie Piercey (00:03:58):
What’s a gaming backpack? Hold on. We need to talk about that.
Jennifer Roberts (00:04:01):
We will talk about that. <laugh> And then, I was once a finalist for county Teacher of the Year. That’s as close as I got to Donnie. Donnie was the Kentucky Teacher of the Year. He got to go to the White House and stuff. That was exciting.
Donnie Piercey (00:04:13):
<laugh> I mean, to be fair, there’s only three million people in Kentucky, and about what, 50 million people that live in California? <Laugh> So odds are definitely stacked in my favor, I think.
Jennifer Roberts (00:04:23):
So you’re saying we’re even there? Is that, is that what you’re going for?
Donnie Piercey (00:04:25):
Yeah, evens out. Evens out.
Eric Cross (00:04:27):
So I’ve been looking forward to talking to you both for a while now, and talking about artificial intelligence. It’s like the big thing. And both of you, at different ends of the spectrum and in my life, have contributed to this. Donnie, you’ve been sharing so much great information online about how you’re using AI in elementary. Jen, you are the reason I got into education technology years ago, right when I was becoming a teacher. And so being able to talk with you both about it excites me a lot. So first off, for the listeners who may not have any experience with it — and there’s still a lot of people out there who have not been exposed to it, haven’t got their feet wet with it yet — I’m hoping we could start off maybe with an explanation of … we could do AI, ChatGPT, I know that’s the big one. But simply explaining what it is, just for the new person. And whoever wants to start off can tell us about it. Or maybe we’ll start … we’ll, let’s actually, let’s do this: Let’s continue going like K–12? So Donnie, maybe you could … what’s your pitch to the new person of, “Hey, this is what it is”?
Donnie Piercey (00:05:31):
All right. So, AI, artificial intelligence, probably the way that most people are exposed to it, at least since November when it launched, is through ChatGPT. Where if you Google it, you know it’s made by a company called OpenAI. The best way to describe what it is … when you go there for the first time, make an account, it’s free. You have like a little search window, looks like a Google search bar. And instead of searching for information, you can ask it to create stuff for you. So for example, like on Google search, you might type in a question like, “Who was the 19th president of the United States?” Where on ChatGPT, instead of just searching for information, it creates stuff for you. So you could say, you could ask it to, “Hey, write a poem about the 19th president of the United States.” Or, “Write a short little essay comparing, I don’t know, Frederick Douglass to Martin Luther King Jr.” And it would do that for you. You know, that’s most people’s first exposure to AI, at least in these past few months. Instead of … you know, it’s artificial intelligence, but it’s not just chatbots. There’s lots of other AI that exist out there.
Jennifer Roberts (00:06:47):
And I think that’s the thing: that people don’t realize how much AI is already in their lives.
Donnie Piercey (00:06:51):
For sure. Yeah.
Jennifer Roberts (00:06:52):
You know, they just haven’t seen … the term that I see being used a lot now is “generative AI.” AI that can produce something. It can produce writing, it can produce art, it can produce a script, it can produce a character. But the AI that has been helping you pick what to watch next on Netflix and the AI that’s helping Google help you get where you wanna go on Google Maps faster, those are forms of artificial intelligence as well.
Donnie Piercey (00:07:21):
Yeah. I mean, even those, when you get that that message in Gmail, and instead of having to type out that response that says, “Yeah, that sounds great,” you can just click the little button that says, “Yeah, that sounds great.” I mean, that’s been in Gmail for years, but that’s artificial intelligence too.
Eric Cross (00:07:39):
Absolutely. So why is it important, do you think, for educators to, to be familiar with it? Like, why are we all so excited about it?
Jennifer Roberts (00:07:47):
So, educators need to know what kids are into, and kids are obviously into ChatGPT. And anyone who’s an educator right now has probably already had something cross their desk — or more likely their computer screen — that was written by AI and passed off as a student’s own work. And that is, of course, the great fear among teachers everywhere, that this is what kids are just gonna do these days and they won’t be able to catch it and children won’t be doing their own work and this and this. But I think the big reason teachers need to know what’s going on is because teachers need to be futurists. Our clientele will live in the future. We teach kids, kids will become adults, adults will live in the world. And so if we’re not thinking about and trying to predict on some level what’s gonna happen 5, 10, 15 years from now … we might be wrong, but what if we’re right?
Jennifer Roberts (00:08:38):
And if we’re not at least trying to think about what is their future world gonna look like, then we’re not serving our students well. I did a whole night talk on that. So I think ChatGPT is part of that. I teach seniors. I had this moment of realization I felt a few months ago. I’m like, “This is gonna be the world they graduate into. They need to know what this is before they leave me.” If I don’t teach them how to use this well, and not the way they’re using it — which is to copy and paste the teacher’s assignment and drop it into ChatGPT and take whatever it spits out and turning that in without even looking at it — if I don’t teach ’em how to use it critically, if I don’t teach them how to write effective prompts, if I don’t teach them how to use the AI as a tool, as a collaborator, then they’re gonna graduate into a world where they lose out to people who do know how to do that. And I think the advantage goes to kids who have access and knowledge of what’s in front of them and what’s available, and can use all of the tools at their disposal. Because when you’re writing in school and you write with a collaborator, that could be considered cheating. But when you do that out in the adult world, that’s considered doing a good job. <Laugh> Being a team player. <Laugh> You know, adults don’t work alone for the most part. And adults are expected to churn out beautiful, perfect content no matter how they got there. So if I’m not teaching my kids how to use this, they’re not being ready. They’re not gonna be ready to be the adults that I want them to be.
Donnie Piercey (00:10:07):
A hundred percent agree. And I also believe … as you know, I teach elementary school. I also don’t think anybody is saying that on the first day of kindergarten, you hand a kid a Chromebook and load up an AI chatbot or ChatGPT and say, Hey, this thing’s gonna do all your work for you for the next 12 years; just coast through life. You don’t have to think creatively. You don’t have to learn how to develop a paragraph or learn how to write a speech or develop an idea. Like, I don’t think anybody’s saying that, because as an elementary school teacher, there’s many days when I’m like, “Y’all, we’re just putting the Chromebooks away today and we’re just gonna go old-school. We’re just gonna maybe just jot down five quick ideas and stand up and present those ideas to the class.”
Donnie Piercey (00:10:54):
Because while AI definitely will, like you were saying, Jen, play a significant role in the lives of our students who are, not just graduating, but the 10- and 11-year-olds in my classroom this year. A significant role in their lives. It’s also really important to recognize that we’re not saying that this means that “Hey, kids don’t have to work anymore.” They still have to put forth that effort. There’s still — one of the ways that you become a good writer is by trial and error. And sometimes that trial and error comes through talking to a teacher or talking like you were saying to a peer or collaborating with a peer and saying to them, “Well, this sentence here, this paragraph here, really doesn’t make sense.” And I do believe one of the ways — especially as AI starts to become more fine-tuned and starts to be embedded more and more in tools like Google Docs and Microsoft Word — is it’s almost going to be a tutor to students.
Donnie Piercey (00:11:56):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Where I could very easily see in a few years, or maybe a few months, who knows what Google or any of these other big companies has rolling out, where a student could highlight a paragraph that they wrote simply, and then say, “Hey, proofread this for me,” or “Check for coherence.” Or even just ask a simple question: “Does this paragraph make sense?” Because you can already do that. You can copy a paragraph over into a chatbot and say, “Hey, does this make sense?” You know, “Rate my idea from one to 10,” and it’ll do that for ’em.
Jennifer Roberts (00:12:26):
We did that last week <laugh>.
Donnie Piercey (00:12:28):
Yeah. Right. I mean, that’s the thing. That technology exists now. It’s just not totally embedded yet. But based on what I’ve read and what I’ve seen, that’s gonna happen sooner rather than later. And it’s really, really important that we teach our students that, “No, you’re not just gonna use this, this tool to cheat, but you can use this tool to help you become a more creative student.”
Jennifer Roberts (00:12:50):
This is the use case in my classroom. Can I talk about that? You ready for that?
Eric Cross (00:12:53):
Please.
Jennifer Roberts (00:12:54):
OK.
Eric Cross (00:12:54):
Please.
Jennifer Roberts (00:12:55):
So my ninth graders are writing a comparative analysis essay, where I took them to the student art gallery and I made them pick two pieces of completely unknown student art and take notes on it, so they could go back and write this essay. And as soon as we got back to class, I said, can ChatGPT write this for you? And they all kind of froze ’cause I didn’t tell them what ChatGPT was. And they weren’t sure if they were allowed to know or not. And finally one of them kind of bravely raised his hand and said, “No.” And I said, “Why not?” And he said, “Well, the AI hasn’t seen the art. How can it write an essay about art when the art is completely original that we just went and looked at?” I said, “It’s almost like I planned it that way, isn’t it?” And they laughed nervously. And then I said, “Does that mean it can’t help us with this assignment?” And they said, “Well, no — of course it can’t help us, because it has not seen the art.” And I said, “Well. …” And I open ChatGPT, and I typed in what they were trying to do: “I need to write a comparative analysis essay comparing two pieces of student art on these reasons. And I need to choose which one did it better, basically. Can you help me with an outline?” and ChatGPT produced a lovely outline. And I looked at that with my students and we looked at it together and I said, “This is what it gave us. Would this be helpful to you?” And they’re like, “Yeah, that would be helpful to us.” So we — to be clear here, I was the only one using ChatGPT in the room. They were not actually using it. We were using it together. I copied and pasted the outline that it gave us and put it in their learning management system where they could access it so they could use the outline that the robot provided, and then they could use that to make their own writing better. So then I let them write for a little while, and, after they’d written for a little while, I said, “Does anybody wanna let me share your first paragraph with ChatGPT and see what it thinks of how you’re doing?” And a brave student raised his hand and we took his paragraph and we put it in ChatGPT, and it spit back advice. We said, “This is what I have so far for my first paragraph. Do you have any advice for me?” And we gave it the writing, and the first piece of advice it gave back was very generic, you know, “Add a hook,” you know, like kind of thing. But after that, it started to get more specific about things he was actually doing in his writing. And it started to give him some feedback. And we looked at that together as a class. And I said, “Does any of that feedback help you?” And he said, “Oh yeah, absolutely. I’m gonna go add some revisions to my paragraph.” And other students did too. They looked at the feedback he got and used that to improve their writing. And so everybody went and revised. And I said, “Look, if you take what the robot gives you and you copy and paste it, and you turn it in as your own work, it’s gonna get flagged for plagiarism. And that’s not gonna go well. But if it gives you writing advice the same way I would give you writing advice, and you decide that advice is good, and you take that advice and you incorporate it into your own writing yourself, then the robot’s making you better, but you’re still the one doing your own writing.” And the writing they turned in from that assignment was, was better. It wasn’t written by ChatGPT; it was still about the student art that they found in the gallery. But I showed them a path. Like, it can help you with an outline, it can help you with feedback. Right? These are fair ways to use it that’s gonna make you better. And they really liked that. They really liked — no one had shown them that before. The idea that you don’t just take the teacher’s prompt and give it to it … like, these are new uses to students and worked well.
Eric Cross (00:16:17):
So right now, you both just laid out these ways that you’re using it. And I do this with people that I’m trying to introduce to ChatGPT or AI. ‘Cause I get excited. Anyone could write a 500-word persuasive essay on the use of color in The Great Gatsby or The Outsiders, and they can get something back within seconds. But for a lot of educators, it might feel like the sky is falling.
Donnie Piercey (00:16:43):
Oh, understandably! Understandably. I mean, that totally makes sense.
Eric Cross (00:16:49):
What would you say to them? Donnie, go ahead.
Donnie Piercey (00:16:51):
Yeah. Well, I feel like every teacher kind of goes through the same experience when they see like a generative chatbot. I mean, all these major companies are gonna start incorporating AI, the generative AI piece. And a lot of times, when they see it for the first time, two things. First they’ll say “Oh, but I’ll know that that’s not my students’ writing.” Which, frankly, I think is a good thing, because that tells me that the teachers know their students’ writing. They’ve seen them write in person. They’ve conferenced with them one-on-one. And if a student were to turn something in to me, who I know might be a struggling writer, maybe it’s not their strength, and all of a sudden they’re turning in this10-page dissertation-worthy thesis written at a PhD level, I’m like, “All right, man, you’re nine. Can we talk about where this came from?” <laugh> But I also don’t think that at like the heart, I don’t feel like kids want to cheat. I really don’t. I feel like sometimes like kids are in a situation where they’re like, “OK, I’ve got nothing left. I gotta get this assignment done.” And when those kind of things happen, that’s when we as teachers, we have those one-on-one conversations. Even when I showed my students ChatGPT and even some of the AI image-generating stuff for the first time, and I talked to them about, “What do y’all think about this?” Because, you know, they’re under 13. In my district, ChatGPT is blocked for students. Staff, we have access to it. And that’s just because one, it’s so new, and at the same time, we need to figure out, “What’s the best way they can go about using this tool?” But when we were talking about it as a class, you know, I didn’t want to ignore the elephant in the room. So I asked them, I said, “Hey, do you feel like this is something that you all would use to. …” I mean, I used the word. I said “cheat.” And to be honest, the majority of the students in my class, they were taken aback. They’re like, “What? You think we just would cheat all the time?” Right? <Laugh> And I’m like, “Oh, well good. I’m glad to know that integrity is still alive and well.” But yeah, that’s definitely my thoughts on it, as far as not only the student integrity piece — I think that that’s the big thing that you need to just bring up with your students. Because again, I like to think that I’ve seen my students write enough that if they were going to turn something in that wasn’t their voice, or it didn’t sound like them, like I could have that conversation. And don’t be surprised, too, if in the next … I don’t know, one month to a year, there’s lots of AI detectors that exist. A lot of them are these like third-party things. You can go ahead, but I would not be surprised if in the next year or so, like you start to see those AI detectors be built into Google Docs, into Microsoft Word, into even Canva. And honestly, it’s almost like a fail-safe button for teachers, that we could say “All right, this is telling me that this is 99% probably written by AI.” So you can have that conversation with a student that way.
Jennifer Roberts (00:20:03):
I mean, if you’re worried about it, Formative, right now, will even tell you if something is copy-and-pasted into the boxes that they give you for students to write in. I find that kids who cheat are desperate, you know. Especially at the high school level. They’re panic mode. And, and usually their panic comes from, “I have no idea how to even start this assignment.” And so part of what I wanna use ChatGPT for is to lower that barrier for them. Like, you’ve got an assignment, you don’t know where to start. Tell the robot, tell ChatGPT, about the assignment and ask it for a list of steps. You know, ask it for an outline. Ask it for a time management plan. I see so much tremendous potential for this to help many of my students with IEPs who have executive functioning issues.
Donnie Piercey (00:20:49):
Oh, a hundred percent, right?
Jennifer Roberts (00:20:51):
Yes, a hundred percent. This can be their personal assistant who, you know, instead of me sitting with them one-on-one and saying, you know, “This is the task you need to do, let’s break it down into these six discrete chunks,” the artificial intelligence can do that for them. And it can do that for teachers too. <laugh>
Donnie Piercey (00:21:09):
Jen, I was just thinking about, how long until we see like the phrase artificial intelligence written onto a student’s IEP? I could see that happening very, very soon.
Jennifer Roberts (00:21:20):
Right? They should be able to use that. And then, also, of course, all of its amazing beneficials for teachers. I had to completely rewrite a unit of my curriculum. I knew what I wanted to do. I had some ideas of things I wanted to put in there. And I resorted to, I went to EducationCopilot.com and typed in my stuff that I had: You know, what standards I wanted to cover, what outcomes I was hoping for mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it generated an eight-week unit for me. And I actually told it then to go back and do it as a 12-week unit so that I’d have more stuff in there to go and cherry-pick to decide what I really wanted to do. But it gave me ideas. It gave me places to start. It saved me an hour of just brainstorming. And I don’t think that was cheating. I still got to go in and decide which ideas were valid. And I still got to … you know, I mean, I’m a teacher. Can I get accused of cheating? I don’t think that’s a thing. It’s—
Eric Cross (00:22:18):
That’s collaborating! It’s collaborating!
Donnie Piercey (00:22:20):
Collaborating! It’s a feature! It’s a feature.
Jennifer Roberts (00:22:22):
It’s Tony Stark talking to Jarvis. You know, they’re figuring it out together.
Donnie Piercey (00:22:26):
Oh, when you use the AI, Jennifer, do you call yours Jarvis? In my class we call him Jeeves. ‘Cause remember Ask Jeeves?
Jennifer Roberts (00:22:33):
I think Eric calls it Jarvis.
Eric Cross (00:22:35):
Yeah. Jarvis is gonna be the AI’s name when, when I can get that fully functioning. There are some things that you had said, I just wanna circle back on. Donnie, Jen — so what I heard was like, best intentions. The part you said about integrity and students wanting to cheat … even the mindset that we go in assuming our students, what they would want to do and assuming best intentions, really kind of frames how you look at this kind of technology. And then Jen, you kind of brought up why students cheat, and realizing that either they don’t feel equipped, or maybe it’s time management, or something else. But most people — and I believe this as an educator — most students want to learn, and they want to be able to perform and achieve. And when they cheat, it’s because they didn’t feel like they could, for whatever reason. Whether it’s it’s outside factors, whether it’s something internal, motivation, whatever it is.
Jennifer Roberts (00:23:24):
Or they were very disconnected and just didn’t care.
Eric Cross (00:23:27):
Sure.
Jennifer Roberts (00:23:27):
This is just busy work the teacher’s giving me, so I’m gonna give it very little of my time and energy. But I think, yeah, it can be that. But if the kid cares about it, if they wanna learn, they wanna learn, you know?
Eric Cross (00:23:40):
Right.
Jennifer Roberts (00:23:40):
This is the day of the internet. Any kid can learn anything they really want to learn. And we see that all the time in our classes. The kid who has zero interest in what I’m teaching in English, but he is an expert coder, and that’s what he wants to spend his time learning. He’s like, “Can I read this C++ book as my independent reading book?” And I’m like, “You know, actually, you can. Go ahead.” <Laugh>
Eric Cross (00:24:01):
Yeah. And for both of you, saying that this makes content more accessible … and I think Donnie, or Jen, you said something about IEPs. I actually put in having it write an IEP to see what would happen. I gave it a prompt for a student’s ability level and I asked it to create a plan. And then I asked it to create a rationale. And it did! And it was good! I went through and vetted it. And right now … you know, a lot of it is funny, ’cause the conversation I’m having with different teachers is kind of like the Wikipedia one. Remember when Wikipedia first got out and everyone was like trying to discourage everybody from using it, because, well, it could be changed by anybody? And now everyone’s like, “Oh, check Wikipedia, and then steal the sources, ’cause they’re already done for you.” Like, the mindset has shifted since then. And I was talking to someone and they said, “Well. …” And I said, “We can use AI, it could be a tutor, these other things. …” And they said, “Yeah, but what happens?” And then insert apocalyptic scenario. Like, what happens if you don’t have access to wifi? And it reminded me of, for some reason, cooking classes. So in the 1700s you probably had to be able to farm to be able to generate your food. Right? Like, you had to get it from somewhere. But if you take a culinary class now, you just go to the grocery store. And someone might say, “Well, but you should know how to farm, ’cause what if there was this worldwide apocalypse and nobody could go to the grocery stores?” <Laugh> And you’re like, “Well, balance of probability though.” You know, it’s like we’ve been really been living in these iterations of life, and I think this next step for some folks … like, we don’t even realize, even like something like bank statements, right? So many folks are paperless. And there’s always a what-if scenario. What if you need it and the internet goes down. But we get so used to to to technology advancing and making our lives different. This kind of seems like that next iteration. And I wanna ask you this question: Are we looking at like the next calculator? The next internet, with this tech? Or do you think it’s too early to say?
Donnie Piercey (00:26:01):
Well, I’ve seen a lot of people compare ChatGPT to a calculator. I’ve seen that pop up on social media. There’s, “Oh well, no, this is like when the calculator was invented. Everyone was up in arms about how ‘that’s not what math students should do.’ Math should be pencil and paper, math should be this.’” However, you can give a kid a calculator and you can give ’em a word problem and they can punch in all the numbers, but they could do the wrong operation or they could put the decimal point in the wrong place, ’cause the student is still the one who’s controlling what’s on the calculator. Where with AI, all you gotta do is just copy it and then paste it into the bot and it’ll spit out whatever the question asked it for. Whether it was, you know, a 500-word rationale or proof for something in geometry, or if it’s analyzing data on a chart, it’ll do all that.
Jennifer Roberts (00:27:00):
Yes. But it’s not that magical. It’s back to what Eric did with the IEP. He put in a prompt and then he knew enough to ask for a rationale and then he knew enough about IEPs to critically read the results he got and make sure they actually worked for what he needed. He had to know all that. He was an expert using it to do an expert thing. My husband’s a computer scientist; he got ChatGPT to help him write an app, and it was a new programming language to him, and he could put in the data and he could ask for things that I would’ve never thought to ask for. But because he knows the language of computer science, he knew what to ask for. And when it gave him results that were bad, he could see that, and he could say, “Yes, but do it again, but without this,” or “make this part more efficient.” He, again, knew what to ask for. So I think the generative AI is, as a partner with humans, a powerful thing. But if the human doesn’t know what they’re doing, yeah. You’re still not gonna get great results.
Donnie Piercey (00:28:03):
<laugh> And I think that’s why I’m coming at this from the elementary school perspective, right? Because in K–5 students are still learning, like, “Hey, where does the decimal point go?” They’re still learning, you know, if you’re dividing by a two-digit number, where does the first digit go, if you go in the old long-division algorithm? And so they’re still acquiring that base-level knowledge that … I don’t know, maybe this is similar to in Jurassic Park when Jeff Goldblum says, “It didn’t take any knowledge to attain,” you know, “they stood on the shoulders of geniuses,” that whole thing. Like they had to acquire the knowledge for themselves, was his whole point. And so that’s why I don’t think it’s exactly the same as the calculator. It is definitely going to change things, in a similar way that the calculator did. But to me it’s just a whole new animal. And I don’t know if it’s going to be like the next internet, Eric — if you’re gonna get little devices that have AI built into it, like a Star Wars kind of thing, like a droid or something that follows you around — all that would be kind of cool, not gonna lie. But whether it’s something that you’ll access through the internet, something that’s built into your TV, that part I don’t know. But I do know that there’s a reason why all of these apps and all these companies are investing so much — not just energy, but time and money into it. Because they’re recognizing. “OK, this really has the potential to change things.” But if used well, and used safely, to change people’s lives for the better.
Eric Cross (00:29:41):
So I definitely hear that you both agree with the statement that if AI ChatGPT was used in the classroom, it could be a force for good. And literacy development. And I wanna shift gears a bit and then come back to the AI. So with that said — and we’re gonna get into some best practices in a minute — in Science Connections right now in this season, we’re making the case for how science can do more in classrooms and in schools. And so I’m I’m curious about what both of you think about the role in science fostering a better future when it comes to AI and education. And this season we’re really talking a lot about literacy. You know, in schools, so often it’s taught in a siloed way. And Donnie, you’re doing multi-subject. Jen, you’re single-subject: English. And we’ve really been trying to make this case for how science can actually support literacy, and these skills that students are trying to develop. So we’re going a little old-school, kind of diving into your content specialty, but maybe even pre-AI, or maybe AI has a component in this. But Don, maybe we’ll start with you. How has science been a way that has been helpful for your own literacy instruction? I know you do a lot of science, because I see your Google Earth stuff and the thing you did with the solar systems back in the day. And I think —.
Donnie Piercey (00:30:54):
Oh my gosh! You remember my <laugh> … wow.
Eric Cross (00:30:58):
That was amazing!
Donnie Piercey (00:31:00):
We haven’t done that since the pandemic. But I had my students go out, and using Google Earth, we built a scale model. Each of the students partnered up and they planned out on Google Earth a scale model of the solar system. They picked an object from around their house and we talked about like, “Don’t pick something bigger than a beach ball, or else, you know, your Neptune’s gonna end up like 10 miles away.” But you know, they just picked like a small ball, like a basketball, soccer ball, something like that. Or football, for international friends. And then we calculated the size of every other planet. And then on Google Earth, using their front lawn as where the sun was, then we went and we calculated where other planets would be, and then we actually drove to those locations and like held up the objects that would represent Neptune, Jupiter, Saturn, and all that. But it was a lot of fun.
Eric Cross (00:31:59):
And is that still accessible? ‘Cause I know you have some websites that you put resources out there.
Donnie Piercey (00:32:03):
Yeah. Yeah, I can … I wanna say on my Resources page — Resources.MrPiercey.com — I’ve got a link on there to a couple of student examples that I can share. And if not, when we get off this call, I’m gonna go on and put them on there <laugh> so people can find it. I’ll even throw on there just the assignment itself. So if you wanted to copy that and do that with your students, you could.
Eric Cross (00:32:27):
Donnie, the reason why I brought that up is because I saw that you had posted that or shared it a long time ago, and I just thought it was the coolest thing that you could totally do with middle-school students or high-school students. Jen, when I became a teacher, you said, “We’re all teachers of literacy.”
Jennifer Roberts (00:32:43):
<laugh> Yeah. I think we forgot to tell them that I was one of your professors.
Eric Cross (00:32:47):
Yes. <Jennifer laughs> One of the people who’ve definitely influenced and shaped my teaching. And that statement has never left my mind: that we’re all teachers of literacy. And I want to ask you, at the high-school level, how can science educators, or how can science — how have you seen it, or how does it, support literacy, when it’s done right?
Jennifer Roberts (00:33:09):
Like I said, I think we’re all teachers of literacy, but I think literacy is bigger than just reading and writing. I don’t think someone is literate if they can’t talk somewhat knowledgeably about what’s happening with climate change. I don’t think someone’s literate if they don’t know what’s going on in the world. And I think so much of what’s going on in the world has to do with science. We’re doing that all the time. If I could teach English just by giving kids articles about science, things to read, that would make my day. Right? We would never read another piece of fiction again. It would all be, you know, what’s happening to the ice sheet in Greenland. My students thrive on reading non-fiction. And then whenever that non-fiction touches on science is even more interesting. And whenever I can get them writing about data, particularly their own data that they collected, I think that’s building those science literacy skills as well. So I think science and English blend together very, very well. I think the literacy aspects of that are fantastic. There are more subject-specific vocabulary words, advanced vocabulary words, in science than any other discipline. And I don’t see why those shouldn’t come up in English as well. You know, my seniors will do a unit at the end of the year on the new space race. Unless I replace it with a unit about generative AI, which I’m seriously considering doing, ’cause I think they really need to learn about bias in AI algorithms and things like that. And I would like to have them read a whole bunch about that stuff. And I wanna give them the open letter that all those CEOs signed that said that AI research should slow down, and make them part of that live conversation about what’s happening in that field. So science comes into that. You know, when we read Into the Wild, we start talking about a whole bunch of scientific concepts. And when it rains in Southern California, we pull up weather maps and look at radar and talk about that and how that works.
Donnie Piercey (00:34:59):
That’s like once every 10 years, Jen? <Laugh>
Jennifer Roberts (00:35:02):
Well, actually, this year it rained a lot. It rained a lot in San Diego. Which is actually very high-interest for them. ‘Cause they wanna know, is it gonna be raining at lunchtime?
Eric Cross (00:35:12):
Jen, you said something … you have your students writing about data?
Jennifer Roberts (00:35:16):
Oh yeah.
Eric Cross (00:35:17):
Can you tell me more about that?
Jennifer Roberts (00:35:19):
So, this is something we’ve done with the ninth grade team for a long time now, is writing about their own data. So it started with a unit about stereotypes and stereotype threat. And they would collect data individually and then they would enter that data into a Google form and then we would give them the spreadsheet of the aggregate data from the whole ninth grade. And then we morphed that unit into one about academic honesty, and they filled out a survey at the beginning of the unit about their feelings about academic honesty and about experiences with academic honesty and cheating and homework and things like that. And then we would do the unit. We’d do all the readings in the unit. And they’d have these “aha” moments about things that were happening at other schools. And then at the end of the unit, we would give them back their own aggregate data and ask them to write about whether or not academic honesty was an issue at our school. And then to support that answer with evidence from their own dataset. So they had that spreadsheet to comb through and figure out, you know, where am I gonna stand on this? We give them the multiple-choice questions we gave them as the graphs, in Google Slides, so that they could write about them and talk about them, too. So yeah, getting kids to write about data. And the the sentence frames we gave them were sentence frames out of, They Say, I Say, from the chapter on writing about science. And <laugh> as they write this stuff, they’re like, “I feel so smart writing this way.” And I’m like, “I know, ’cause you’re writing about big important topics!” Right? And writing about their own data come to think of it is another great way to make an assignment both very personal to them, but also make it ChatGPT-proof, you know, if you’re looking for something that kids can’t just hand to the robot, the robot doesn’t have that data set.
Eric Cross (00:37:08):
Absolutely. And Donnie, at the elementary level, do you, do you make connections between science and literacy? In your class? You talked about with math, definitely with the solar system, but now, I’m curious, what are your newer projects? What have you been working on lately?
Jennifer Roberts (00:37:23):
What’s up now, Donnie?
Eric Cross (00:37:24):
Yeah, what are you doing?
Donnie Piercey (00:37:25):
Oh, man. Well, let me think. I’m just trying to think of some fun projects that we’ve done this year. Science that we can tie in Literacy and also some student creation. Just recently we had a … so I’ve wanted to expose my students to famous scientists that weren’t just white dudes from Europe. So for this year, what I did — and I actually used AI for this — I went into ChatGPT and I asked for 64 famous scientists and it listed them all off. And then I asked it, like, how many of these were white? And I think it said like 61 of them. You know, it had like Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and a couple of other … I didn’t know who they were. So I’m like, “All right, so we need to make this more diverse and make this more equitable.” ‘Cause you know, with the student population in my classroom, try to find equal representation to make sure they can see themselves in some of these scientists. So, eventually got it narrowed down to where I had about 64 scientists. Half are women, half are men from all continents except Antarctica. I assigned these scientists to my students. Some got two; some got three. And their assignment was to go and one, do some individual research on this person, find out what they were famous for, what they were most well-known for, turn it actually into a persuasive piece, where I said, “Hey, you’re gonna have one slide.” And I’ll tell you why I gave him one slide in a minute. On that one slide, you’ve gotta convince the person who sees it that this scientist is the most important scientist since the dawn of creation. I said, “You could use images, text — I don’t care if they were famous for something that you didn’t even understand what it was. It’s a persuasive piece. You’re 10. Go all out. Add gifs, do that whole thing.
Eric Cross (00:39:21):
This is awesome.
Jennifer Roberts (00:39:21):
I wanna do this project.
Donnie Piercey (00:39:23):
And if you picked up on the number 64, and I did this in March, so what we did was throughout the weeks of March Madness of the women’s and men’s NCAA tournament, whenever a game was going on, we had another round of voting. I just paired ’em up. I was gonna like seed them, like 1 to 64 — that’s just way too much work for me <laugh>. So I just kind of did random kind of thing. But all the students had to do — they just saw the slides side-by-side, and the only question they had was, “Based on what you see here, who is the most important scientist? This person or this person?” And it eventually came down to Carl Sagan going up against Marie Curie.
Eric Cross (00:40:04):
OK, that’s a good matchup.
Donnie Piercey (00:40:06):
Yeah, well, the Marie Curie slide, they just liked the radium piece. So they added like some green glowing gifs. And I said, “Guys, it doesn’t always grow glow green.” But whatever. Anyway, eventually Carl Sagan, in case you wanted to know, according to the 10-year-olds in my classroom, is the most important scientist in the history of the world. So I don’t know if I agree with that per se — I think maybe Newton or somebody else might have had something else to say about it — but fun assignment. It was a unique way to expose my students to a bunch of ideas. I remember the student that I assigned Newton, the only thing that that she knew about Isaac Newton was “Didn’t he get hit in the head with an apple?” And I said, “Well, not exactly, I think you might have read or maybe seen too many like old-school cartoons or whatever.” But she ended up doing some research. She’s like, “Oh, I’ve heard of that before! That equal and opposite reaction thing.” Didn’t know what it meant. I had another student that just got really … you know, if you’ve ever been on one of those YouTube kicks where it’s just, you go like nine levels deep onto like, “What does this theorem mean?” Student sits in back of my classroom, I walked by one day and he’s just watching something on like the fifth dimension and what it might be. And I said, “Oh, your scientist got you started on that.” So definitely was a lot of fun. Unique way to combine reading, writing, but also expose my students to some ideas. And we’re definitely gonna do it again. I’ve actually done this assignment before. I picked 64 random elements on the periodic table. But their only slide that they have to make is “What’s your element? What is it used for? And then, why is this the most important element since the dawn of creation?” <Laugh> And, you know, there’s always that student that gets hydrogen. They’re just like “Sweet!” Right? They get excited about that one. <laugh>
Eric Cross (00:41:59):
Explosions.
Donnie Piercey (00:42:00):
Yeah. But then, for that kid who likes a challenge, or that student with the “gifted” label, you give them, like, einsteinium or palladium. Some of the more challenging ones. And they go all out with this. I didn’t use AI for that one, but it was kind of fun, and I figured it’d be neat to share an idea that another teacher could try.
Eric Cross (00:42:20):
Well you probably have at least two teachers right now that are gonna go and try that. And we’re both looking at you. So.
Donnie Piercey (00:42:24):
Go for it.
Eric Cross (00:42:25):
Thanks for that idea. I’m imagining my students coming in with jerseys with “neon.”
Donnie Piercey (00:42:29):
Oh yeah. <laugh>
Eric Cross (00:42:30):
“Neon” on it. Just all ’80s out.
Donnie Piercey (00:42:33):
The game behind it, too, is you tell kids — again, this is just so the 10-year-olds in my class don’t get their feelings hurt — but I say, “Hey, and if your element gets knocked out, you just have to start cheering for whoever beats you in the tournament.” So by the end, you kind of got half the class cheering for one and half the class cheering for whatever.
Jennifer Roberts (00:42:53):
So the only thing I got outta that whole story that I’ve got for you is, as a child I met Carl Sagan. That’s all I got.
Donnie Piercey (00:43:02):
For real?
Jennifer Roberts (00:43:02):
For real.
Donnie Piercey (00:43:03):
So did he talk with that cadence and tone?
Jennifer Roberts (00:43:06):
Yes.
Donnie Piercey (00:43:06):
Like in real life? Wow.
Jennifer Roberts (00:43:07):
Yes. My father was one of the cinematographers on the original Cosmos. And I got to go to the set a few times.
Donnie Piercey (00:43:14):
That’s incredible!
Jennifer Roberts (00:43:15):
I did not appreciate what I was seeing as a child. But as an adult, I’m like, “That was cool. I was there.”
Donnie Piercey (00:43:20):
“You can see my shadow off in the distance.”
Jennifer Roberts (00:43:23):
I mean, maybe that’s part of why I’ve always had an interest in science. I’ve always had fantastic science teachers. Every science teacher I ever had was amazing.
Donnie Piercey (00:43:31):
I credit mine to Mr. Wizard. I don’t know if you ever watched Mr. Wizard and Beakman’s World?
Eric Cross (00:43:35):
I remember Mr. Wizard. Yep. Yep. I definitely remember Mr. Wizard, Beakman’s World, all those. That was on Nickelodeon back in the day. I had to get up early to watch that one. But there’s a YouTube video—
Donnie Piercey (00:43:44):
Six am!
Eric Cross (00:43:44):
<laugh> It was! It was super-early! But there was one, Don, I don’t know if you’ve seen this on YouTube, but it said “Mr. Wizard Is Mean,” and it’s just clips of when he’s—
Donnie Piercey (00:43:56):
Yelling at kids!
Eric Cross (00:43:56):
Chastising. Or being really direct. It’s just one after another.
Donnie Piercey (00:44:02):
He always asked ’em a question and if the kid, you know, didn’t answer it right, he’d be like, “Well, you’re not right, but you’re wrong.” You know, whatever. <Laugh>
Eric Cross (00:44:14):
I have to make sure I’m not subconsciously saying Mr. Wizard quotes when I’m talking in the classroom, when things are happening. But yeah, that video’s hilarious. So I just want to bring us back to AI, and ask this question: Do you think science has a special role to play when it comes to teaching kids about AI responsibly? Does science have a special role in that?
Jennifer Roberts (00:44:36):
I think the responsible piece of AI I wanna teach my students about is the part about the bias in the algorithms and the bias in the training. And I want them to understand how it works, well enough to make informed decisions about how it impacts their lives.
Donnie Piercey (00:44:56):
Hmm.
Jennifer Roberts (00:44:57):
Because I do have concerns about a tool that was trained on the internet. And the answers it gives you is the average of the internet. And do we trust the internet? And the answer from kids is always, “Well sorta, no.” <Laugh> So I want them to understand the social science behind that.
Donnie Piercey (00:45:18):
Yeah. And just along that same point, having the students recognize that just because, you know, you copy-and-paste a question in, the answer it spits out might not always be correct. So, teaching them that just like you would with a source that you find about a topic that you’re researching, you’ve gotta fact-check.
Jennifer Roberts (00:45:44):
It’s just like being a good scientist. A good scientist wouldn’t always accept a single result or the first result. You know, you would look at multiple angles. You would try things different ways. Last week I took the article my seniors were reading about victim compensation after 9-11, and in front of them, I gave ChatGPT, I said, “Are you familiar with this article by Amanda Ripley? And ChatGPT came back and said, “Oh yes, this was written in the Atlantic in 2020 and it’s about these things, blah, blah blah.” And my students looked at that and went, “That’s not the article we read.” And I said, “I know. It got it wrong. That’s amazing!” Yeah. And I was so happy that it got it wrong! ‘Cause I wanted them to see that happen.
Donnie Piercey (00:46:21):
And I guess one of the big science questions there, or one of the big science components there, is that idea of inquiry. Right? It’s almost like you have to teach students how to ask those deep questions about what AI spits out.
Eric Cross (00:46:35):
All of those tips are great. And it leads me to this last question I want to ask. New teachers that are out there — it actually doesn’t even matter; new teachers, experienced teachers, all of us are kind of new at different levels of this race. We’re all kind of starting it together. I mean, it hit mainstream. We’re all getting exposed to it. You all really dive into it. When tech comes out, I know you two really like, “OK, how can we use this to transform education and do awesome things for kids?”
Donnie Piercey (00:47:04):
Usually, when new tech comes out, “How can this make my life easier?” is usually the question. Yeah.
Jennifer Roberts (00:47:09):
“How can I save myself time with this?” Yes.
Donnie Piercey (00:47:11):
“How can this result in me watching more TV and you know, less grading,” sometimes.
Eric Cross (00:47:16):
And I start there like you, but then I end up more time that I fill with another project. And I need to learn how to stop doing that. I’m like, “Oh! I got more free time! … to go take on this other task.”
Jennifer Roberts (00:47:28):
Oh, all of my tech adoption is driven by “how can I work less?”
Eric Cross (00:47:32):
So you’re you’re talking to a new teacher, teacher’s getting exposed to this, they’re starting the school year or they’re just getting their feet wet with it. What advice would you give them about AI, incorporated into content or even just best practices? Where you’re at right now in your own journey, and someone’s asking you about it —what would you share with ’em? And Jen, I want to start with you.
Jennifer Roberts (00:47:53):
So, the first thing I did is I was in the middle of grading, you know, 62 essays from my seniors about Into the Wild, when ChatGPT became a thing last November. And I wanted to see what would happen. So the first thing I did was take the prompt that I had given my students and gave it to ChatGPT, ’cause I had just graded a whole bunch of those essays and my brain was very attuned to what my rubric was doing and what I was expecting as the outcome. So I could take what ChatGPT gave me as that quote unquote “essay” and evaluate it critically. And I was ready to do that. So my first advice is take something you’re already asking students to do and ask ChatGPT to do the same thing. So that as you look at the student results, you can compare that to what ChatGPTgives you. If what you’re finding is that ChatGPT can generate something that would earn a decent grade from you, you might need to change that assignment. And it doesn’t need to be a big change, but it might need a tweak or something, so that it, it does rely on the student voice, the students to do something more personal. I’m finding very helpful in my classroom is having my kids do projects where they are recording themselves on — I like Flip. So they’re writing a scene together and they’re having to record the scene together. And I’m emphasizing more of the speaking roles than the writing roles necessarily. So yes, first, take something you’re already doing, paste in to ChatGPT, see what the results are, see how that fits with what your students are doing, and then do that for every assignment you give and just sort of see what comes out of that, and see which assignments are failing and which assignments are working. ‘Cause that’s gonna give you a sense, when you do see one of those results from your students, you’ll be able to recognize it. But it’ll also help you tweak your assignments and decide, “How can I make this a little more original or a little bit more authentic for my students?” And if the robot, if the AI, can’t generate a response, what could the AI do that would be helpful to your students? Would be my next question. So can you use the AI to help them generate an outline? Can you use the AI to help them generate a list of steps to help them get started? And when you’re comfortable enough doing that by yourself, then don’t be afraid to open it in front of your class. If it’s not blocked at your school site, which I hope it’s not. Because I think the advantage goes to kids who have access to this in the long run, or at least see what it is and know what it is. Right? Because if a kid graduates from school without knowing that AI exists, they’re not gonna be prepared for what they face out in the world. So give them a chance to see you using it. Model effectively using it. I have a blog post about that. I just wrote it. LitAndTech.com. You can check that out. “Introducing 9th graders to ChatGPT.” How it went, right? There’s a chart there you can have. It’s my very first draft of this, but it seems to be very popular. So, you know, show students how it can be used as their mentor. If I can’t come read your paragraph because I have 36 kids in my classroom and I cannot stop and read everybody’s first paragraph, can you, if you want to, give your first paragraph to ChatGPT and ask for advice? And will that advice be helpful to you? So showing students how it can be used responsibly is, I think, something every teacher should be doing right now. And don’t hold back just because you’re afraid you’re gonna be teaching them what this is. They know what this is. Right?
Donnie Piercey (00:51:13):
They know what it is.
Jennifer Roberts (00:51:13):
Especially if you teach high school. They know what it is. I’ve had parents thank me for showing them how to use it responsibly. You know, this can actually be a really useful tool, but if you’re trying to make it do your work for you, it will probably fail you. If you’re trying to use it to help you do your work, it will probably be helpful. Sort of the way I’m breaking it down for them at this point. You want the great metaphor? The great metaphor is if you build a robot and send it to the top of a mountain, did you climb that mountain? No. If you build a robot and ask it to help you get to the top of the mountain, and you and the robot go together, did you climb that mountain? Yes.
Eric Cross (00:51:53):
I like that. I’m thinking through this. I’m processing that now.
Donnie Piercey (00:51:57):
Me too.
Eric Cross (00:51:59):
Yeah. I just imagine a robot holding my hand climbing Mount Everest and I’m like, “Yeah, I did it.”
Donnie Piercey (00:52:04):
If I got a robot though, like I would have to dress it like Arnold Schwarzenegger in Terminator 2. Like I would just have to.
Eric Cross (00:52:10):
Of course.
Donnie Piercey (00:52:10):
Of course.
Eric Cross (00:52:13):
Donnie, same question. Advice. Teachers getting immersed into it. Tips. What would you say?
Donnie Piercey (00:52:20):
So, I would definitely agree with everything that Jen said. Just, if anything else, to familiarize yourself with it. Almost like pretend like it’s a student in your classroom and it’s answering questions, just so that way you can see what it can do. And you’re kind of training yourself, like, “Oh, well, if I ever need examples, exemplars.” If you’re in a writing piece and you don’t wanna sit there and write out four different types of student responses — you know, advanced writer, beginning writer, whatever — great way to to do that is you just—
Jennifer Roberts (00:52:48):
Oh yeah. We did that.
Donnie Piercey (00:52:48):
—copy the prompt in and give a beautifully written piece that a fifth grader would be impressed with. Boom. It’ll do it for you. In my classroom, the way that I approach it is I kinda look at AI as almost like this butler that I don’t have to pay. That if I need it to do something for me, it’s just bookmarked. I can click it. And I mean, sometimes I just talk to it like it’s a person. And it’s almost like, in the chat window, I’m just rambling at it, what I’m trying to do. And it’s almost like I’m talking to a coworker, and I’m trying to hedge out some ideas for a lesson. Simple example: For a science lesson, if you’re trying to come up with … let’s say you’re a fifth-grade — or, sorry, I teach fifth grade. Say you’re a seventh-grade science teacher. And you’re trying to teach the students in your class about Newton’s third law of motion. You know, every action [has an ] equal and opposite reaction. Look around your room. See what you have. Maybe look around and you’re like, “All right, I got a whiteboard, microscope, I’ve got magnets, a cylinder. …” And you just copy all this stuff into ChatGPT. Say, like, “Hey, I have all of these items. Cotton balls, peanut butter, whatever.” And say, “I’m trying to teach students Newton’s third law of motion. Give me some ideas of some ways I could teach it using some of these materials.” And it’ll do it! It’ll give you like five to 10 ideas!
Jennifer Roberts (00:54:15):
And then tell it what your students are into. Like, my students are really into basketball. Can you work that into this lesson?
Donnie Piercey (00:54:21):
Yeah! They’re into the Avengers! Hey, find some way to tie Spider-Man into this. You know, that was a pun that didn’t go so well. But, you know <laugh> figure out some way that you could incorporate this and it’ll do it. And Eric, like you said, it won’t be perfect. Right? But if anything else, if you’re a starting teacher and you’re trying to brainstorm ideas — try it.
Eric Cross (00:54:44):
And Donnie, as you were saying that, I was thinking — first, I imagined Spider-Man shooting cotton balls with peanut butter all over them — and then my mind went to having students have these items, like you were saying. And then they create labs, working alongside AI. To do inquiry. To create a lab about something, and then going and performing and collecting data. OK, that’s — now I wanna go do that tomorrow!
Donnie Piercey (00:55:10):
Listen, it is so easy to do. If you have an extra computer in your classroom. … We were talking about Jarvis and Iron Man and Tony Stark earlier. Make a new chat in ChatGPT. Tell it, “I want you to pretend that you are Tony Stark. Only answer questions as if you are Tony Stark.” Or “Pretend you’re Jarvis.” Whatever. “Stay in character the whole time. I’m going to have sixth grade students come up to you and ask you questions about science or forces of nature, and only answer questions like you’re Iron Man.” And guess what? You keep that station in your classroom. Students are working on a project — you know, in elementary school, a lot of times we’ll have that, “ask three before me” — you’re supposed to ask three friends before you go and bug the teacher. Well, maybe one of those “three before me” can be that little computer station, where they go up and ask Tony Stark a question, and then it answers them as Jarvis or Iron Man. I mean, we’re really just scratching the surface with all this AI stuff. And as more and more companies and more and more creatives are gonna start to realize everything that it can do, we’re gonna start to see it more and more. And hopefully we as teachers can really figure out how to use this tool to, of course, help students, but also help them be creative and explore and learn on their own.
Eric Cross (00:56:35):
That’s amazing. And just both of you are just dropping gems right now. And I wanna wrap up by saying — and I’ve said this before on earlier podcasts I’ve done — but at this phase in my life, the people that I’m the biggest fans of are teachers. And it’s true. I don’t mean that in a cliche way. When I watch celebrities and things like that, when I watch professional sports, that doesn’t fill me the way it used to when I was a kid. At this point, as a professional, I get inspired by other educators who are just doing awesome things. And when I think about educators who are doing that, you two are on that list of people that make me better. And when I get better, I can do better things for my kids. And so, one, I want to thank you for staying in the classroom and continue to support students. They’re so lucky to have you both. The second thing I wanted to say is, Jen, I wanna start with you. Where can people — and I know we said at the beginning — but where can people find the stuff that you put out? You got blogs, your social, your book.
Jennifer Roberts (00:57:28):
I got lots of social. Twitter, I’m JenRoberts1 on Twitter. And then my blog is LitAndTech.com. And then I’m on lots of the new social too, the Mastodons, the Spoutables, the Posts — those kinds of things — as just Jen Roberts, because I got in early and I got my real name without a 1. And there was some other one I’m on recently that I’ve forgotten about. But there’s lots of ’em. They’re fun. And I’m Jen Roberts. You can find me there.
Donnie Piercey (00:57:56):
And I’m SergeantPepperD on AOL, if anyone’s interested.
Eric Cross (00:58:00):
If you wanna hit Donnie up on AIM. <Laugh>
Donnie Piercey (00:58:03):
SergeantPepperD.
Jennifer Roberts (00:58:04):
You know, speaking of rock stars and people who do amazing things, I did write a blog post about using ChatGPT in the classroom, but I hear Donnie wrote a whole book.
Eric Cross (00:58:13):
Oh yeah. So, Donnie! Donnie, that’s a great segue. Thanks Jen. Donnie, how do people find out more? And can you tell us about this book you wrote, that’s coming out in the summer?
Donnie Piercey (00:58:22):
Yeah, so the book I wrote is called 50 Strategies for Integrating AI Into the Classroom. It’s published by Teacher Created Materials. They reached out to me. They had seen some of the stuff that I was doing, not just with ChatGPT, but also some image-generating AI stuff. You know, I got featured on Good Morning America, which was kind of cool. And they saw that and they said, ‘Hey, that looks really neat.” Reached out to me and asked me to write a book. And the idea behind the book, that launches this summer, it’s just 50 ideas, 50 prompts, different things that, as a classroom teacher, that you can do. So, you know, I think there’s so many AI books that are out there now. A lot of them are big ideas, which I think are important. Definitely important discussions that need to be, have around, the ethics of AI. What’s the role that AI should play in the classroom. But I just wanted to write a book, kind of like the discussion that, that Jen and I were just having, which is like, “Can we just share a whole bunch of ideas, different things that we could try with our students?” So definitely check it out. And I appreciate you giving me a shout-out too. That was cool, Eric. Thank you.
Eric Cross (00:59:35):
Of course. Definitely. And Donnie, your Twitter is again. …
Donnie Piercey (00:59:39):
Oh, @MrPiercey, M R P I E R C E Y.
Eric Cross (00:59:44):
Follow Donnie. Follow Jen. Tons of stuff on there. Both of you, thank you so much. For your time, for talking about students and how we can take care of them, science, literacy, AI. I hope we can talk about this again. I feel like even if in just six months, we might be saying different things. In a year, the landscape might completely change. And that makes it really fun. But thank you both for being on the show.
Jennifer Roberts (01:00:04):
Thank you for having us, Eric.
Donnie Piercey (01:00:05):
Thank you so much, Eric. We appreciate it, bud.
Eric Cross (01:00:10):
Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Jen Roberts and Donnie Piercey. Jen Roberts is a veteran English teacher at San Diego’s Point Loma High School and author of the book Power Up: Making the Shift to 1:1 Teaching and Learning. You can keep up with her at LitAndTech.com. And Donnie Piercey is a fifth-grade teacher from Lexington, Kentucky. He hosts the podcast Teachers Passing Notes. Stay up-to-date with him at Resources.MrPiercey.com. And let us know what you think of this episode in our Facebook discussion group, Science Connections: The Community. Make sure you don’t miss any new episodes of Science Connections by subscribing to the show, wherever you get podcasts. And as always, we’d really appreciate it if you can leave us a review. It’ll help more people and AI robots find the show. You can find more information on all of Amplify’s shows on our podcast hub, Amplify.com/hub. Thanks again for listening.
Stay connected!
Join our community and get new episodes every other Wednesday!
We’ll also share new and exciting free resources for your classroom every month!
Meet the guests
Jen Roberts is a Nationally Board Certified high school English teacher with 25+ years of experience teaching Social Science and English Language Arts in grades 7-12. She has had 1:1 laptops for her students since 2008 and is the co-author of Power Up: Making the Shift to 1:1 Teaching and Learning. A Google for Education Certified Innovator since 2011, Jen was named the CUE Outstanding Educator in 2022. Her interests include literacy instruction, standards based grading, and leveraging Google tools to make her teaching more efficient and effective.
Donnie Piercey, the 2021 Kentucky Teacher of the Year, is a fifth-grade teacher in Lexington, Kentucky. With a passion for utilizing technology to promote student inquiry, learning, and engagement, he has been teaching since 2007. In addition to being in the classroom, he runs a podcast, Teachers Passing Notes that is produced by the Peabody Award winning GZMShows, and holds several recognitions, including a National Geographic Fellowship to Antarctica in 2018. His most recent work in Artificial Intelligence has not gone unnoticed, earning him multiple appearances on Good Morning America, the Associated Press, and PBS. His upcoming book, “50 Strategies for Integrating AI in the Classroom” published by Teacher Created Materials, is written for educators looking for practical classroom approaches to using AI. All told, Donnie has been invited to keynote and present at schools in thirty-three states and on five continents.
About Science Connections
Welcome to Science Connections! Science is changing before our eyes, now more than ever. So…how do we help kids figure that out? We will bring on educators, scientists, and more to discuss the importance of high-quality science instruction. In this episode, hear from our host Eric Cross about his work engaging students as a K-8 science teacher.
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Customer Privacy Policy
Last Modified: January 23, 2026 | Update History
Most recent update: This Privacy Policy has been updated to address additional rights for individuals in the European Union/UK.
We advise you to read this Privacy Policy in its entirety, including the jurisdiction-specific provisions in the appendix. Click here to review Our U.S. Notice At Collection.
Customer Privacy Policy: K–12 Schools
Who We Are
Amplify Education, Inc. (“Amplify”) is leading the way in next-generation curriculum and assessment. Amplify’s programs provide teachers with powerful tools that help them understand and respond to the needs of each student and use data in a way that is safe, secure, and effective.
Our Products and Services
Amplify’s products support classroom instruction and learning and include Amplify CKLA, Amplify ELA, Amplify Caminos, Amplify Science, Amplify Desmos Math, Boost Reading, Boost Math, mCLASS, Mathigon, associated professional development and tutoring services, and services at classroom.amplify.com (for creating and assigning activities) and student.amplify.com (for use of the activities or curricula as directed by an instructor), and any other product or service that links to this Privacy Policy (together, the “Products”).
Our Approach to Student Data Privacy
In the course of providing the Products to Schools and their Authorized School Users, Amplify collects, receives, generates, or has access to Student Data (defined below). We consider Student Data to be confidential and we collect and use Student Data solely for educational purposes in connection with providing our Products to, or on behalf of the School as described in this Privacy Policy and our Agreements (defined below). We work to maintain the security and confidentiality of Student Data that we collect or store, and we enable Schools to control the use, access, sharing, and retention of Student Data.
Our Products are geared towards K–12 students (“Students”), and the educators, agents and staff members who use the Products as authorized by their School (“Educators”). Information that directly relates to an identifiable Student (“Student Data”) is owned and controlled by the School, and Amplify receives Student Data as a “school official” under Section 99.31 of the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974 (“FERPA”) for the purpose of providing the Products hereunder. In addition, we rely on the School acknowledging that it is acting as the parent’s agent and consenting on the parent’s behalf to process personal information of Students under the age of 13 (“Child Users”) in accordance with the Children’s Online Privacy Protection Act (“COPPA”).
Our collection and use of Student Data is governed by our Agreements with Schools, including this Privacy Policy (“Privacy Policy”), and applicable laws which may include FERPA, COPPA, the Protection of Pupil Rights Amendment (“PPRA”), as well as other applicable federal, state, and local privacy laws and regulations (“Applicable Laws”). As noted above, with respect to FERPA, Amplify receives Student Data as a “school official” under Section 99.31 of FERPA for the purpose of providing its Products, and such Student Data is owned and controlled by the School.
Schools may provide authorization in two ways:
- by the School agreeing to our Customer Terms and Conditions located at amplify.com/customer-terms or another written agreement between Amplify and the School, as applicable; or
- by an Educator agreeing to the Acceptable Use Policy located at amplify.com/acceptable-use-policy/ (“AUP”) on behalf of the School as outlined in the AUP.
In each case, we collect Student Data and provide these Products solely for the use and benefit of the School and for no other commercial purpose. We require all Schools to review this Privacy Policy, available at amplify.com/customer-privacy, and to make a copy of the Privacy Policy available to the parents or guardians of Child Users.
We also provide limited opportunities for individual users to sign up for an account for use of our Products at-home or otherwise outside of the authorization of a School (“Home Users”). See the Appendix–Supplemental Disclosures for additional information that applies to our Home Users.
What This Privacy Policy Covers
This Customer Privacy Policy (“Privacy Policy”) describes how Amplify collects, uses, and discloses personal information through the provision of Products.
For purposes of this Privacy Policy, “you” and “your” means Authorized Users (defined below).
This Privacy Policy does not apply to Amplify’s handling of:
- information collected from users of Amplify’s company website, which is governed by our Website Privacy Policy.
- job applicant data that we process in accordance with our applicant privacy notice.
There may be different contractual terms or privacy policies in place with some Schools. Such other terms or policies supersede this Privacy Policy for information collected or released under those terms. If you have any questions as to which legal agreement or privacy policy controls the collection and use of your personal information, please contact us using the information provided below. Unless expressly superseded, this Privacy Policy is incorporated into and is subject to the Agreement that governs your use of the Products.
Our Role
Amplify as a processor/service provider: Our School customers are the controllers of Student Data (as well as certain other Educator personal information to the extent required by law or Amplify’s agreement with the School) (together “School Data”).
Amplify acts as a processor/service provider for our School customers with respect to School Data, which means when we use School Data, we do so solely on the instruction of the School. School Data is subject to the School’s privacy policies; therefore, you will need to contact the School directly if you have any questions or would like to exercise your rights with respect to School Data.
Amplify as a controller: We are the controller of all other personal information we collect from non-Student Authorized Users (“Amplify Data”) and can be reached by email at privacy@amplify.com or by mail at Amplify Education, Inc., 55 Washington St.#800, Brooklyn, NY, 11201.
Policy
1. Definitions
Capitalized terms not defined in this section or elsewhere in this Privacy Policy will have the meaning set forth by Applicable Laws.
“Agreement” means the underlying contractual agreement between Amplify and the School.
“Authorized Users” means all users of our Products, including Authorized School Users, parents and legal guardians, and Home Users.
“Authorized School Users” means Students and Educators.
“Local Education Authority” means a local education agency or authority, school district, school network, independent school, or other regional education system.
“Non-Student Data” means information that is linked or linkable to Authorized Users who are not Students.
“School” means the Local Education Authority or State Agency.
“State Agency” means the educational agency primarily responsible for the supervision of public elementary and secondary schools in any of the 50 states, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, or other territories and possessions of the United States, as well as a national or regional ministry or department of education in other countries, as applicable.
2. What personal information do we collect?
When you access or use our Products, you may choose to provide us with personal information, including Student Data. This information may be provided to us directly (e.g. when an account is created or through communications with us) or through your interactions with our Products.
Student Data. Below is a list of the categories of Student Data that may be collected by Amplify or its Products, either directly or through the Authorized School User’s use of the various features and configurations of the Products:
- Identifier and Enrollment Data, such as name, email, school / state ID number, username and password, grade level, homeroom, courses, teacher names.
- Why? Most of Amplify’s Products require some basic information about who is in a classroom and who teaches the class—Student or teacher Identifier and Enrollment data. This information is provided to Amplify by the School, either directly from the School’s student information system or via a third party with whom the School contracts to provide that information.
- Demographic Data, such as date of birth, socioeconomic status, race, national origin, and preferred or primary language.
- Why? To support school instructional and reporting requirements, Amplify’s Products allow Schools to view reports and analyze data using Demographic Data. Generally, Demographic Data is provided on a voluntary basis by the School. For example, a School may wish to analyze Student literacy assessment results based on English Language Learner status to better tailor classroom instruction, and in that case, the School may provide Demographic Data to enable that reporting.
- School Records, such as grades, attendance, assessment results, and whether an Individualized Education Plan (IEP or local equivalent) is in place.
- Why? Some of our Products support grading assignments and administering formative, diagnostic, and curriculum-based assessments. Teachers use that information to support Students’ progress in the program or help with instructional decisions. We do not collect specific details from an IEP, nor do we collect protected health information or other sensitive information.
- Schoolwork and Student Generated Content, which includes any information contained in Student assignments and assessments, including information in response to instructional activities and participation in collaborative or interactive features of our Products, such as Student responses to academic questions and Student-written essays, as well as images, video, and audio recordings.
- Why? As part of the digital learning experience, some of our Products may enable Students to write text and create and upload images, video, and audio recordings. For example, in Amplify ELA, students may write essays or submit short-form responses in our platform as part of a lesson on literature. As another example, in Boost Reading, student interactions with reading skills games are recorded to keep track of the student’s progress to level up in the program and to provide visibility to teachers on how students are mastering the skills.
- Teacher Comments and Feedback, such as scores, written comments, or other feedback that Educators may provide about Student responses or student course performance.
- Why? To enable teachers to track the performance and provide feedback to their students.
- Non-Student Data. We may collect the following types of personal information from all other Authorized Users:
- Contact Information, such as name and email address, as well as grade level taught, school name and school location, whether you are an Educator or Home User that creates an account or uses our Products or communicates with us.
- Account Information, such as user login and password, for account creation and access purposes.
- Survey Responses, which you provide in response to surveys or questionnaires.
- Device and Usage Data. Depending on the Product, we may collect certain information about the device used to connect to our Product, such as device type and model, browser configurations, and persistent identifiers, such as IP addresses and unique device identifiers. We may collect device diagnostic information, such as battery level, usage logs, and error logs, as well as usage, viewing, and technical information (e.g., email open rates), such as the number of requests a device makes, to ensure proper system capacity for all Authorized Users. We may collect IP addresses and use that information to approximate device location to support operation of the Product. To the extent that we collect this information, this data is solely used to support operation of the Product and is not linked to Student Data. For purposes of clarity, Amplify does not use Student Data for marketing or advertising purposes (see section 6 of this Privacy Policy for more information about our commitments regarding Student Data).
- Why? We use this information to remember returning users and facilitate ease of login, to customize the function and appearance of the Products, and to improve the learning experience. This information also helps us track product usage for various purposes, including website optimization, to ensure proper system capacity, troubleshoot and fix errors, provide technical assistance and customer support, provide and monitor the effectiveness of our Products, monitor and address security concerns, and compile analytics for product improvement and other internal purposes.
- How? Cookies and Similar Technologies. We collect device and usage data through “cookies,” Web beacons, HTML5 local storage, and other similar technologies, which are used in some of our Products solely to support operation of the Products as described above. While we may use third party cookies and similar technologies for advertising and marketing purposes on our website (in accordance with our Website Privacy Policy), we do not permit such tracking technologies to be present on Student-facing portions of the Products. In particular, we only use the following types of cookies in our Products:
- Strictly necessary cookies – These are cookies that are required for the operation of our websites and applications that host our Products. They include, for example, cookies that enable you to log into secure areas of our Products. These cookies are not generally stored beyond the browser session and are less likely to include personal information. This category of cookies cannot be disabled.
- Functionality Cookies – We use these cookies so that we recognize you on the websites and apps that host our Products and remember your previously selected preferences. These cookies are stored on your device between browsing sessions but expire after a pre-defined period. These cookies enable us to “recognize” you when you use our Products, including your preferences such as your preferred language, time, and location. A mix of first party (placed by us) and third-party cookies (placed by third parties) are used.
- Performance Cookies – These cookies help us and service providers acting on our behalf compile statistics and analytics about users of our Products that are accessed via websites and apps, including Device and Usage Information.
- Learn how to opt out of cookies and similar technologies by reading the “What Rights and Choices Do You Have?” section of this Privacy Policy below.
3. How do we use personal information?
Student Data. Amplify uses Student Data for educational purposes, to provide the Products, and to ensure secure and effective operation of our Products, including:
- to provide and improve our educational Products;
- to support School and Authorized School Users’ activities;
- to ensure secure and effective operation of our Products;
- for purposes requested or authorized by the School or Authorized School User or as otherwise permitted by Applicable Laws;
- for customer support purposes, to respond to the inquiries and fulfill the requests of the School and their Authorized School Users;
- to enforce Product access and security controls; and
- to conduct system audits and improve protections against the misuse of our Products, or to detect and prevent fraud and other harmful activities.
- to enable the adaptive and personalized learning features of the Products.
Non-Student Data. Amplify may use Non-Student Data for the purposes for which Student Data is used as set forth above. In addition, Amplify may use Non-Student Data to provide customized content, advertising and marketing in limited circumstances (e.g. to periodically send newsletters and other promotional materials) directed to Educators and Home Users. For sake of clarity, we do not use Student Data for marketing purposes and we do not direct marketing to Students. Amplify may also use Non-Student Data for internal research and analytics, including generating insights on the use of our Products by Educators in certain Schools so that we can better serve those communities. We will also use Non-Student Data as otherwise required or permitted by law, or as we may notify you at the time of collection. Learn how to opt out of these communications by reading the “What Rights and Choices Do You Have?” section of this Privacy Policy below.
Amplify may use aggregate or de-identified data as described in the Aggregate/De-identified Data section below.
4. To whom do we disclose personal information?
Student Data. We disclose Student Data to third parties only as needed to provide the Products under the Agreement, as directed or permitted by the School or Authorized School User, and as required by law. Such disclosures may include but are not limited to the following:
- to other Authorized School Users of the School entitled to access such data in connection with the Products;
- to our service providers, subprocessors, or vendors who have a legitimate need to access such data in order to assist us in providing or supporting our Products, such as platform, infrastructure, and application software. We contractually bind such parties to protect Student Data in a manner consistent with those practices set forth in this Privacy Policy and in accordance with Applicable Laws. A list of Amplify subprocessors is available at https://www.amplify.com/subprocessors;
- to comply with the law, respond to requests in legal or government enforcement proceedings (such as complying with a subpoena), protect our rights in a legal dispute, or seek assistance of law enforcement in the event of a threat to our rights, security, or property or that of our affiliates, customers, Authorized Users, or others;
- in the event Amplify or all or part of its assets are acquired or transferred to another party, including in connection with any bankruptcy or similar proceedings, provided that successor entity will be required to comply with the privacy protections in this Privacy Policy with respect to information collected under this Privacy Policy, or we will provide the School with notice and an opportunity to opt out of the transfer of such data prior to the transfer; and
- except as restricted by Applicable Laws or contracts with the School, we may also share Student Data with Amplify’s affiliated education companies, provided that such disclosure is solely for the purposes of providing Products and at all times is subject to this Policy.
Non-Student Data. Amplify discloses Non-Student Data for the purposes for which Student Data is used as set forth above. Amplify may also disclose Non-Student Data as otherwise required or permitted, or as disclosed at the time of collection. Please note that we do not share mobile information or opt-in consent with third parties / affiliates for their own marketing or promotional purposes.
5. Aggregate/De-identified data
Amplify may use de-identified or aggregate data for purposes allowed under FERPA and other Applicable Laws, to research, develop, and improve educational sites, services, and applications and to demonstrate the effectiveness of the Amplify Products. Amplify will not attempt to re-identify de-identified data. We may use aggregate information (which is information that has been collected in summary form such that the data cannot be associated with any individual) for analytics and reports. For example, our promotional materials may note the total number of students served by our programs in the prior year, but that information cannot be used to identify any one student. We may also share de-identified or aggregate data with research partners to help us analyze the information for product improvement and development purposes.
Records and information are de-identified when all personal information has been removed or obscured, such that the remaining information does not reasonably identify a specific individual. We de-identify Student Data in compliance with Applicable Laws and in accordance with the guidelines of NIST SP 800-122. Amplify has implemented internal procedures and controls to protect against the re-identification of de-identified Student Data. Amplify does not disclose de-identified data to its research partners unless that party has agreed in writing not to attempt to re-identify such data.
6. Data prohibitions, Advertising, Advertising limitations
Amplify will not:
- sell Student Data to third parties;
- use or disclose Student Data to inform, influence, or enable targeted advertising to a Student based on Student Data or information or data inferred over time from the Student’s usage of the Products;
- use Student Data to develop a profile of a Student for any purpose other than providing the Products to a School or Authorized School User, or as authorized by a parent or legal guardian;
- use Student Data for any commercial purpose other than to provide the Products to the School or Authorized School User, or as permitted by Applicable Laws.
7. External third-party services
This Privacy Policy applies solely to Amplify’s Products and practices. Schools and other Authorized Users may choose to connect or use our Products in conjunction with third-party services and Products. Additionally, our sites and Products may contain links to third-party websites or services . This Privacy Policy does not address, and Amplify is not responsible for, the privacy, information, or other practices of such third parties. Schools should carefully consider which third-party applications to include among the Products and services they provide to Students and vet the privacy and data security standards of those providers.
Authorized Users may be able to log in to our Products using third-party sign-in services such as Clever, ClassLink or Google. These services authenticate your identity and provide you with the option to share certain personal information with us, including your name and email address, to pre-populate our account sign-up form. If you choose to enable a third party to share your third-party account credentials with Amplify, we may obtain personal information via that mechanism. You may configure your accounts on these third-party platform services to control what information they share.
8. Security
Amplify maintains a comprehensive information security program and uses industry standard administrative, technical, operational, and physical measures to safeguard Student Data in its possession against loss, theft and unauthorized use, disclosure, or modification. Amplify performs periodic risk assessments of its information security program and prioritizes the remediation of identified security vulnerabilities. Please see https://amplify.com/security for a detailed description of Amplify’s security program.
In the event Amplify discovers or is notified that Student Data within our possession or control was disclosed to, or acquired by, an unauthorized party, we will investigate the incident, take steps to mitigate the potential impact, and notify the School in accordance with Applicable Laws.
Non-Student Data
Outside of Student Data, Amplify uses commercially reasonable administrative, technical, personnel, and physical measures to safeguard personal information in its possession against loss, theft, and unauthorized use, disclosure or modification.
9. Data Storage and Transfers
We are a United States Company, and our servers are hosted, managed, and controlled by us in the United States. If you are outside of the United States, we use industry standards to protect your data when it leaves your country of residence and your data will always be protected in accordance with this Privacy Policy, Applicable Laws and our Agreement regardless of the storage location.
Additionally, where we transfer your personal information to service providers outside of the United Kingdom (UK), European Economic Area (EEA), or other region that offers similar protections, we use specific appropriate safeguards to contractually obligate such service providers to protect personal information in accordance with Amplify’s commitment to privacy and security and applicable data protection laws.
If you have questions or wish to obtain more information about the international transfer of your personal information or the implemented safeguards, please contact us using the contact information below.
10. Data Retention / Deletion
Student Data
Upon request, we provide the School the opportunity to review and delete the personal information collected from Students. We will retain Student Data for the period necessary to fulfill the purposes outlined in this Privacy Policy and our Agreement with the School. We do not knowingly retain Student Data beyond the time period required to support the School or Authorized School User’s educational purpose, unless authorized by the School or Authorized School User. Upon request, Amplify will return, delete, or destroy Student Data stored by Amplify in accordance with applicable law and customer requirements. We may not be able to delete all data in all circumstances, such as information retained in technical support records, customer service records, back-ups, and similar business records. All such information will be protected in accordance with this Privacy Policy and our Agreement until it has been permanently deleted. Unless otherwise notified by the School, we will delete or de-identify Student Data after termination of our Agreement with the School.
Non-Student Data
Outside of Student Data, we keep personal information as long as it is necessary or relevant for the practices described in this Privacy Policy or as otherwise required by our Agreement with the School, if applicable. We determine the appropriate retention period for personal information on the basis of the amount, nature and sensitivity of the personal information being processed, the potential risk of harm from unauthorized use or disclosure of the personal information, whether we can achieve the purposes of the processing through other means, and on the basis of applicable legal requirements (such as applicable statutes of limitations).
11. What rights and choices do you have?
What Choices Do You Have?
Marketing/Advertising
As noted above, we do not use Student Data for marketing purposes and we do not direct marketing to Students. Amplify does not use third party cookies and similar technologies for advertising and marketing purposes on Student-facing portions of the Products. The choices below apply to Non-Student Authorized Users.
Opt-out of Marketing Communications. If you want to stop receiving promotional materials from Amplify, you can follow the unsubscribe instructions at the bottom of each email or email us at privacy@amplify.com. Amplify does not send marketing communications to Students.
Opt-out of Cookies and Similar Tracking Technologies. With respect to cookies, you may be able to reject cookies through your browser or device controls. Note that you have to opt-out of cookies on each browser or device that you use. If you replace, change, or upgrade your browser or device, or delete your cookies, you may need to use these opt-out tools again. Please be aware that disabling cookies may negatively impact your experience as some features may not work properly. To learn more about browser cookies, including how to manage or delete them, check the “Help,” “Tools,” or similar section of your browser.
What Rights Do You Have?
Individuals in the U.S.
- What Rights Do You Have With Respect to Student Data?
- Review and Correction. FERPA requires schools to provide parents with access to their children’s education records, and parents may request that the school correct records that they believe to be inaccurate or misleading.
- If you are a parent or guardian and would like to review, correct, or update your child’s data stored in our Products, contact your School. Amplify will work with your School to enable your access to and, if applicable, correction of your child’s education records.
- If you have any questions about whom to contact or other questions about your child’s data, you may contact us using the information provided below.
- Other Privacy Rights? Please see section 3 of our supplemental disclosures: “Additional U.S. State Privacy Law Rights” for more information about your U.S. privacy rights
Individuals in the EU/UK
Please see section 4 of our supplemental disclosures: “Notice for European Economic Area and United Kingdom Customers” for more information about your EU/UK privacy rights.
12. COPPA
We do not knowingly collect personal information from a Child User unless and until a School or Educator, with the permission of the School, has authorized us to collect such information to provide the Products. Amplify relies on the School acknowledging that it is acting as the parent’s agent and consenting on the parent’s behalf to process personal information of Child Users in accordance with all applicable provisions of COPPA. To the extent COPPA applies to the information we collect, we process such information for educational purposes only, and no other commercial purpose, at the direction of the School and on the basis of the School’s authorization. If you are a parent or guardian and have questions about your child’s use of the Products and any personal information collected, please direct these questions to your child’s school.
Please refer to the Appendix–Supplemental Disclosures if you are a Home User.
13. Updates to this Privacy Policy
We may change this Privacy Policy in the future. For example, we may update it to comply with new laws or regulations, to conform to industry best practices, or to reflect changes in our product offerings. When these changes do not reflect material changes in our practices with respect to use and/or disclosure of Authorized Users’ personal information, including Student Data, such changes to the Privacy Policy will become effective when we post the revised Privacy Policy on our website. In the event there are material changes in our practices that would result in Authorized Users’ personal information being used in a materially different manner than was disclosed when the information was collected, with respect to Student Data, we will notify the School, and with respect to other information, we will notify you via email and provide an opportunity to opt out before such changes take effect.
14. Contact us
If you have questions about this Privacy Policy, please contact us at:
Email: privacy@amplify.com
Mail: Amplify Education, Inc.
55 Washington St.#800
Brooklyn, NY, 11201
Phone: (800) 823-1969
Attn: General Counsel
To report a security vulnerability, visit https://amplify.com/report-a-vulnerability/.
Appendix – Supplemental Disclosures
1. Mathigon and Amplify Classroom accounts
While our Products are geared towards Schools we do provide a limited opportunity for Home Users to use the Products at home—outside of the school context. We do not allow persons under the age of 13 (or those under the age of consent in any applicable jurisdiction) to register for an account with us outside the school context.
If you are a Home User, you are prohibited from collecting or providing any personal information from students or minors. You are permitted to access the platform for instructional purposes, but you may not enroll or roster minors, create accounts for minors, or input any personal information of minors into the Product.
Please note that most parts of Mathigon can be used without creating an account or providing any personal information that directly identifies you.
What Rights Do You Have? If you are a Child User who is 13 or older with a legacy Mathigon account (or the parent or guardian of a Child User with a legacy Mathigon account), you may request that we provide for your review, delete from our records, or cease collecting any Child User personal information. To the extent that you are unable to exercise these rights through self-service features within your account with us, please contact us by sending an email to: help@amplify.com and we will provide assistance.
2. U.S. Notice at Collection
| Personal Information We Collect | How We Use Personal Information |
|
Student Data, which includes:
|
|
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Authorized Users, which includes:
|
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Some of the information described above may be considered “sensitive” under the laws of certain jurisdictions (i.e., account credentials and race/national origin) (“Sensitive Information”). We use Sensitive Information for necessary or reasonably expected purposes – specifically, to provide you with our Services (i.e., account credentials are used to allow account logins and race/national origin are used for the School’s reporting purposes when voluntarily provided by the School).
We do not sell or share your personal information, as described in California law.
We retain your personal information for as long as reasonably necessary for the purposes disclosed in the chart above. Additional information about our retention of Student Data and personal information from other Authorized Users can be found in Section 10 of this Privacy Policy.
Please see the Additional U.S. State Privacy Law Rights section of this appendix for information about your privacy rights pursuant to applicable U.S. law.
Notice of Financial Incentive
From time to time, to support our services, we offer opportunities to complete surveys and questionnaires. As an incentive for completing the survey or questionnaire, you can voluntarily provide personal information as an entry into a raffle drawing or to obtain other benefits, discounts, offers, or deals that may constitute a financial incentive under California law (“Financial Incentive”). The categories of personal information required for us to provide the Financial Incentives include: contact information and any other information that you choose to provide when you complete the survey.
Participation is voluntary and you can opt out at any time before the survey is complete. We do not allow students to participate in our surveys.
The value of the personal information we collect in connection with our Financial Incentives is equivalent to the value of the benefit offered.
3. Additional U.S. State Privacy Law Rights
Note for Requests Relating to Student Data: Because Amplify provides the Products to Schools as a “School Official,” we collect, retain, use, and disclose Student Data only for or on behalf of the School for educational purposes, including the purpose of providing the Products specified in our Agreement with the School and for no other commercial purpose. Accordingly, we act as a “service provider” for the School with respect to School Data. We work with the School to support and assist them in addressing privacy requests relating to School Data. Please reach out to your School directly if you wish to exercise any privacy rights that may be available to you.
For all other requests: With respect to Amplify Data, individuals residing in certain U.S. states have the following rights, regarding your personal information (each of which is subject to various exceptions and limitations):
- Access. You have the right to request, up to two times every 12 months, that we disclose to you the categories of personal information collected about you; the categories of sources from which the personal information is collected; the categories of personal information sold or shared; the business or commercial purpose for collecting, selling, or sharing the personal information; the categories of third parties with whom personal information was shared; and the specific pieces of personal information collected about you.
- Correction. You have the right to request that we correct inaccurate personal information collected from you.
- Deletion. You have the right to request that we delete the personal information that we maintain about you. Even after the deletion of your account, some personal information may remain on our servers, such as in technical support logs, server caches, data backups, or email conversations. These will be automatically deleted after a reasonable amount of time, unless we are legally required to retain information for longer, or unless there is a legitimate business reason (e.g. security and fraud prevention or financial record-keeping). We are not required to delete any information which has been aggregated or de-identified in accordance with Section 5.
- No Discrimination. You have the right not to be discriminated against for exercising these rights.
- Appeals. You have a right to appeal decisions concerning your ability to exercise your consumer rights.
See Submitting Requests section below for details on submitting a request to exercise these rights.
4. Notice for European Economic Area (EEA) and United Kingdom (UK) Customers
As detailed at the beginning of our Privacy Policy (under the section titled “Our Role”), Amplify operates primarily as a processor that collects personal information on behalf of the School, and we act as a controller in limited circumstances where we offer Products outside the school context.
If you represent a School in the EEA or the UK, please note that we process personal information in accordance with this Privacy Policy, our Acceptable Use Policy, and our standard Data Protection Agreement, which sets out our responsibilities when it comes to our processing activities. Schools must send an email to privacy@amplify.com to enter into that DPA.
Lawful Basis for Processing
We rely on the following lawful bases for our processing activities:
- Consent;
- We obtain your consent to use cookies to collect and process device and usage data to understand how individuals use our Products.
- Pursuant to a contract for use of our Products;
- We process School Data to provide our Products (e.g., to create, authenticate and manage your account, to verify your identity, to manage our Products) pursuant to the Agreement between us and the School, as required in order for us to perform our obligations.
- To comply with our legal obligations;
- We process all categories of personal information that we collect to ensure the safety and security of our Products where we are complying with security requirements under data protection and cyber and information security law.
- We process all categories of personal information that we collect to comply with our legal obligations which includes, for example, to access, retain or share certain personal information where we receive a valid request from a government body, law enforcement body, judicial body regulator or similar, to deal with legal claims and prospective legal claims, and to ensure we are complying with applicable laws.
- When we have a legitimate interest in doing so, which is not outweighed by the risks to the individual.
- We process all categories of personal information that we collect to support the provision, effective management, and improvement of our Products where such activities are not strictly required under our contract. This is in our legitimate interests to ensure that we are providing the best possible service.
- We process all categories of personal information that we collect to ensure the safety and security of our services where this is important but not required under the data protection law or cyber and information security laws. This is in our legitimate interests to ensure the security of our services and systems, to prevent threats, abuse or fraudulent or unlawful activity, to promote safety and security and to ensure our Products are used in accordance with our terms and conditions.
- We process the contact information of Non-Student Authorized Users to manage our relationship, including to respond to queries or otherwise communicate with you in relation to our Products and the operation of our business where this is not strictly required under a contract with you. This is in our legitimate interests to communicate with and resolve queries from users of our Products and to ensure that we are providing the best possible service.
We process the contact information and survey data of Non-Student Authorized Users for internal research and marketing purposes in limited circumstances (e.g. to periodically send newsletters and other promotional materials), which will not be based on Student Data or directed to Students. This is in our legitimate interests to understand our customers and prospective customers, understand how our products and services are perceived in the market, to promote our products, and to grow and develop our business.
Your Data Subject Rights
Note for Requests Relating to School Data: Amplify acts as processor to its School customers with respect to all School Data. We work with our School customers to support and assist them in addressing privacy requests relating to School Data. Please reach out to your School directly if you wish to exercise any privacy rights that may be available to you.
For all other Requests – With respect to Amplify Data, you have the following rights if you are in the EEA or UK, subject to certain exceptions:
- Right of access: You have the right to ask us for confirmation on whether we are processing your personal information and access to that personal information.
- Right to correction: You have the right to have your personal information corrected.
- Right to erasure: You have the right to ask us to delete your personal information.
- Right to withdraw consent: You have the right to withdraw consent that you have provided.
- Right to lodge a complaint with a supervisory authority: You have the right to lodge a complaint with a supervisory authority.
- Right to restriction of processing: You have the right to request the limiting of our processing under limited circumstances.
- Right to data portability: You have the right to receive the personal information that you have provided to us, in a structured, commonly used, and machine-readable format, and you have the right to transmit that information to another controller, including to have it transmitted directly, where technically feasible.
- Right to object: You have the right to object to our processing of your personal information
See Submitting Requests section below for details on submitting a request to exercise these rights.
5. Submitting Requests
To exercise any of the rights described in sections 2 and 3 of this appendix, email us at privacy@amplify.com and specify which privacy right you intend to exercise. We may require additional information from you to allow us to confirm your identity. The verification steps will vary depending on the sensitivity of the personal information and whether you have an account with us. Please note that your rights may not apply in all cases. For example, we may need to retain your personal information to comply with our legal obligations, resolve disputes, prevent fraud and enforce our agreements. We will inform you if we are not able to fully respond to your requests. You may designate an authorized agent to make a request on your behalf. When submitting the request, please ensure the authorized agent identifies himself/herself/itself as an authorized agent and can show written permission from you to represent you. We may contact you directly to confirm that you have authorized the agent to act on your behalf or confirm your identity.
Complaints
If you have any issues, you have the right to lodge a complaint with an EEA or UK supervisory authority. We would, however, appreciate the opportunity to address your concerns before you approach a data protection regulator and would welcome you directing an inquiry first to us. To do so, please contact us by email at privacy@amplify.com or by mail at Amplify Education, Inc., 55 Washington St.#800, Brooklyn, NY, 11201.
6. Google APIs
Amplify uses Google’s Application Programming Interface (API) Services to enable Authorized Users to log in to Amplify, import classes and rosters from Google Classroom, create assignments in Google Classroom, and copy, edit, and publish Amplify content using Google Slides. Amplify will use and transfer information received from Google’s API in accordance with Google API Service User Data Policy, including the Limited Use requirements.
Update History:
Update: 6/13/2025: This Policy has been updated to align with product updates and to provide additional context for authorized educational use of Amplify’s Products.
Update 6/27/2024: The Policy has been updated to include an explanation regarding Google APIs in the Appendix — Supplemental Disclosures section.
Update 6/30/2023: This Privacy Policy has been updated to address new state law data privacy requirements.